mmaker

Uhm i checked with aldirans spreadsheet and the fists is inferior even for me as undead.

 

Mojofabulous

Got the kill last night, YAY! After 4-5 1% wipes and several single digit wipes. Wow, that fight is intense. We also were having debuff issues and had all 3 rogues switch to instant poison, our enhance shaman stopped using flameshock, druid tank stopped using lacerate. Also using 2shadow priest + 1 aff lock. But here comes the point of my post:

As the night progressed we went from giving the melee (1 war + 3 rogue) 2 heroisms, 1 from our enhance shaman, to all 3 heroisms. On our kill we got all 3. Now, I don't really care either way, but now we got someone in our guild forums arguing that giving a group of 4 mages a heroism at sub 20% would be more beneficial than giving the rogues one. Even suggesting a group stacked with the destro locks would be better. The logic seems plausable for the mages since they have increased dmg at sub 20% but I still have a hard time believing they'd end up doing more dmg than the rogue's in our guild who are all sporting 2200-2500 dps every single attempt(1, 2, 3 on the dmg meter). But as I've stated many times, I depend on the theory crafters here for their math skills, because have them, I do not :-)

What do ya think?

 

• Aldriana

Thing to keep in mind is that destro locks and mages actually gain 30% DPS from a Heroism, whereas rogues gain more like 20; as such, while rogues may or may not do more DPS, even sub-20, they probably don't do *enough* more to offset the higher benefit of Heroism to casters.

The main reason not to heroism casters are aggro and/or mana issues; if they're okay on both, heroisming them is a totally reasonable option.

 

drumbum

Well, I think the reason the fist offhand overtakes the sword is because you can drop sword specialization and put 4 points in vile poisons instead. If you don't gain 4 points of vile poisons, then yes, the sword is better. This was specifically a comparison between the two weapons with [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] as your mainhand.

If even under these conditions you're seeing the sword do more damage, then your gear probably favors the sword more for some reason, perhaps due to a higher hit/haste rating or something. In any case, the main point I wanted to make is that it's very close, and getting [Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery] is a very good choice for someone who doesn't have access to a T6 level sword, and that they shouldn't be discouraged from buying it just because it's a fist weapon.

 

lawl

Wouldn't you run surefooted instead of 12 agi for a fight where you didn't have to move?

What you said was kind of contradictory in that sense ("hit is better for any fight where you stand still dpsing", "one set of boots with 12 agi for stationary fights and another with cat's swiftness for everything else").

I never really considered gearing to kill trash a desirable way to itemize.

Seems to me being a few % better on bosses is worth being a few % worse on trash.

 

◊ Shaker

10 hit is still not better than 13 agi (kings, vitality) at that gear level.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

Mojofabulous

Thanks for the quick response ald, I'll pass it along.

"I never really considered gearing to kill trash a desirable way to itemize."

If you can have pieces for both and are willing to switch them out, why not? Guilds in general spend more or equal time on trash as they do on bosses.

 

• Aldriana

Besides which, it's not just trash. As noted, fights like Felmyst - and based on PTR, most likely M'uru - have lower-level adds to kill, and DPS on such adds can be relevant. Now, if I were talking about trading 100 DPS on trash/adds versus 100 DPS on bosses? No, that wouldn't make sense. But 100 DPS on trash/adds versus 3 DPS on bosses? That one seems pretty reasonable to me. It's not "itemizing for trash", it's "itemizing in a way that doesn't actively exclude trash".

Again, it comes down to personal preference. You asked for my reasons, so I gave them. If you disagree, you're welcome to socket however you like.

And no, Surefooted is generally not better than 12 agi. Hit may be better than agi, but it's not 20% better.

 

drumbum

Having multiple pieces of gear and swapping them is one thing. But you can't just swap gems in and out as you please.

 

Rastur

Got a question concerning trinket usage. As far as i know [Shard of Contempt] is not modeled yet but it should be better than [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] for pure sustained fights.

The problem is that i`ve just picked up [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade] (yes, mother and ilidan hate me) putting me on 27 expertise. Option A is to run with both, option B is to drop the shard for the talisman and option C would be using [Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade].

What option would produce the best dps thinking of Brutallus enounter?

 

Oscarvil

Are we going to have this same series of posts every time a new +expertise item drops?

The issue of Shard of Contempt bringing you up against the expertise cap has been discussed EXTENSIVELY over the past few weeks, I suggest you do a search and modify the outcomes of the discussions you find to fit your own personal situation.

 

Azuj

The option that has you read the last few pages of this and the roguecraft 101 thread. Also reading the Brutallus thread might give you some ideas about what to expect and how to gear for it.

 

• Aldriana

So... I'd like to reconsider my answer to the earlier question of the most efficient way to drop a debuff slot. I'm not wholly convinced that my earlier answer was wrong, mind you; simply that it's actually a lot closer than I might have gussed. Consider:

I hacked up the sheet a bit to enter in all the raid buffs + debuffs I actually run with on Brutallus. This will be a lot easier to do when the buff sheet revision comes around (which will hopefully be pretty soon, but, again, no promises), but in the meantime you'll have to trust that I know enough about the sheet to do such things and get reasonable answers.

Now, with that truly disgusting set of buffs entered, and pretending for the moment that I'm doing rupture rather than EA like I usually do (as dropping EA is clearly stupid), we can then estimate how much damage I lose from dropping DP for IP easily enough; the answer turns out to be that IP does 75.8 DPS, while OH IP would do an estimated 35.0 DPS; thus, switching out poisons would drop an estimated 40.8 DPS.

On the other hand, Rupture is currently weighing in as 96.7 DPS. Hence the remaining question is: how much DPS would I get from Eviscerate? Well, lets see; Eviscerate 10 does 985 to 1105 base damage on average, plus 15% of AP; that's 1045 plus 15% of my time-average AP (4316), for an average base damage of 1692. This is then multiplied by 6% (Aggression), which bring it to 1794. At that point, of course, we have to factor in the chance that I will crit; with a calculated 42.6% buffed crit rate, and each crit doing 2 * 1.03 (RED) * 1.02 (Murder) damage, this provides a damage multiplier of 1.469, for an expected damage of 2636 per Eviscerate; reducing this by my average-case armor reduction of 79.5%, we find that the expected real damage of an Eviscerate is 2095.

However, we need to reduce this by 25% of the value of a Sinister Strike to account for the extra 10 energy cost; without boring you with the details, this works out to be 432 mitigated damage; thus Eviscerating does a net 2095-432 = 1663 damage per cycle.

Grabbing the "Cycle duration" parameter out of the sheet, we find that a cycle lasts 27.4 seconds; hence the DPS from Eviscerate works out to 60.8 DPS, which is only 35.9 DPS less than Rupture.

Now, what's *not* factored in here is that I didn't adjust the cycle length; this is a straight up comparison of 5s5r versus 5s5e. Also, the "minus one quarter of a SS" is sort of a hack. But the point remains: swapping Rupture for Eviscerate is actually about the same DPS drop as swapping OH DP for OH IP; hence, either would seem to be an acceptable option for the moment; further investigation will be needed to figure out definitively which is better.

 

• Latito

Two points to add on the subject of debuff alternatives. As I know Ald is aware of, if you are considering switching Rupture or DP to its alternative, think about how your buffs compare to Ald's buffs. AP scales better with Rupture, ArmPen/Crit scale better with Evis. Then again, both should end up within a few dps of each other, and honestly Evis will just come down to crit luck considering you'll only get off ~12-13 of them anyways.

As for Shaman, beware of asking them to Earth Shock if you have an Ele shaman. That would most certainly cause a raid dps loss. In that case, Frost Shock might be the best answer, providing they are safe on threat.

 

• Aldriana

Frost Shock replies a debuff, regretably. It really does need to be earth.

I guess I'm also not totally clear why Earth Shocking would reduce Raid DPS either; I guess it has something to do with consuming Stormstrike charges? I confess I don't know a lot about Stormstrike mechanics, but wouldn't they mostly be getting burned on poison anyway?

 

drumbum

Frost Shock won't apply a debuff because most raid bosses are immune to snares.

 

Jarush

Couple things that should be kept in mind while comparing dp->ip and rupture-> eviscerate:

*Murder has no effect on Brutallus.
*It also matters if one specs to Imp poisons instead of Vile poisons (for deadly poison-->instant poison) or Imp eviscerate (for rupture-->eviscerate).

 

Left

Interestingly, this is a mark against making the DP -> IP switch. According to this post, instant poison consumes Stormstrike charges, while deadly poison does not. That means a significant chunk of Ele. or Enh. Shaman DPS is wasted by a rogue's IP.

As for switching Flame Shock to Earth Shock: this should not be a huge loss of DPS from your Ele. Shaman or Boomkin. Basically, every 10 seconds, one Ele. Shaman spell might not get the 20% Stormstrike buff. Now, to be honest, I don't know what Earth Shocks or Lightning Bolts hit for at that gear and progression level. But for a 30 raid DPS loss, you would need a (30*10)/0.2 = 1500 damage difference between the average lightning bolt hit and the average earth shock hit. And that is assuming that you always get a Stormstrike eaten by the earth shock, when in practice the non-aligned cooldowns of Earth Shock and Stormstrike will cause the Ele. Shaman to get the benefit of the buff more often than not.

In summary, switching DP -> IP is likely to have more of an effect on lost raid DPS from eaten Stormstrike charges than switching Flame Shock -> Earth Shock.

 

royaljester

I have no real evidence, but I'm fairly certain that DP can take an SS debuff. A normal 5stack + talents ticks for under 300 I'd assume, but while on a Brutallus kill, I was having 355-365 ticks continously (aka 20% more).

Maybe it's not supposed to, but it is nature damage, so why wouldn't it?

 

◊ Shaker

DP uses the stormstrike debuff, but does not CONSUME the SS debuff.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

• Latito

I did forget about the snare debuff produced by Frost Shock, however as previously mentioned, bosses are immune and thus I would assume Frost Shock does not add a debuff slot.

Stormstrike (used once per 10 seconds per enhancement shaman) produces a debuff on the boss which makes the next 2 DIRECT nature damage spells hit for 20% more. This effect is similar to the Imp Shadow Bolt effect, where Nature damage DoTs will tick for 20% more, but will NOT consume the debuff. That is, if you have a warlock keeping ISB up, shadow priest dots will tick higher. Similarily, if you have an enhancement shaman putting Stormstrike up.. your deadly poison will tick higher until the charges are eaten. Instant poison, Wrath (moonkin), Earth Shock (enhancement shaman), Lightning Bolt / Chain Lightning / Lightning Overload (Ele shaman) all eat the debuff. Talking to the elemental shaman in my guild, each enhancement shaman boosts his dps by roughly 150 dps due to SS charges (roughly 750 damage per attack which benefits from SS). Having a rogue eat that up with Instant poison is a bit of a nuisance. Moonkins tend to Moonfire and Starfire if I recall correctly, both of which are arcane damage. I believe they have a reasonable cycle which includes Wrath (their nature spell), but don't use it if an elemental shaman is present (since elemental shamans are forced to do nature damage).

I think what it boils down to.. if you have to drop a debuff, switch to Evis first (especially if you have good ArmPen and Crit or no Mangle). If you must drop Deadly poison, it is likely best to use a Sharpening Stone if you have an elemental shaman in the raid. The few dps you lose by going from IP -> Stone is made up by saving your elemental shamans dps.

 

• Aldriana

If you're in Sunwell, I suspect the correct choice is actually Righteous Weapon Coating. While it's definitely inferior to both WF and DP, my sense is that it doesn't compare unfavorably to IP, and I'm sure it's better than a stone.

 

• Aldriana

That's right, ladies and gentlemen, it's what you've all been waiting for: the long awaited buff sheet revamp. Many thanks to nelalas for his hard work on making this happen. As these are fairly major changes that definitely have the potential to break other things, I'm marking this as a beta for now; if you find any major bugs, please report them and we'll see about getting them fixed.

Note that the lack of select Sunwell gear is not a bug, so don't bother asking. Now that this is done, I'll be working on that, and I hope to have something before *too* much more time passes, but the major story of this release is nelalas's work on the buffs, so please focus comments/criticism/etc. on that.

Also note that I changed the default buffs a little bit to more accurately reflect what people tend to run with.

Note: If you download this sheet, and something isn't working the way you expect, please read the FAQ section below before posting a question about it. Many of the questions that get asked in this thread are already answered below.

Beta Release, 4/8/08 - USE AT YOUR OWN RISK: Download

 

◊ Shaker

New buff sheet definitely looks good, I like the breakdown into base vs spec, and I think everything is listed there, which is pretty crazy in and of itself. I haven't run into any bugs so far.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

nelalas

Just a quick comment regarding the new buffs sheet: You no longer have to choose either the base version OR the improved (talented) version of a particular buff. The checkboxes for base versions will turn the buff on or off while the talented dropdowns will modify the base version. Thus, if you want Improved Gift of the Wild, you will want to enable the base Gift of the Wild AND select however many ranks of the talent you want. If you only choose the talent ranks, but don't enable the buff, it won't apply.

Hope you guys enjoy the new look! Many thanks to Ald for helping me debug the new sheet as well as my [several] attempts at replacing it with the old buffs sheet in the damage calculations.