Imnotreal

First a thank you for all your hard work on the spreadsheet, i'm quite new to using this sort of thing but it has been immeasurably helpful in improving my preformance and also to plan for future improvement.

There is one thing I'm unsure about and after reading through the FAQ i couldn't find the answer.

After inputting all my current stats to get a rough idea of what sort of dps i'd do with my current setup, and more importantly to find my appropriate rotation, it gave me an approximate cycle of 1s5r.

This confuses me for a few reasons:

1) I don't have the tier4 2pc set bonus
2) As I'm currently not raiding heavily, and doing more PVP than PVE i am a shadowstep build, though i do respec combat if i am to do any heavy raiding. This means i don't have improved slice and dice, combat potency or any other combat talents.

There is no way i could sustain a 1s5r cycle while keeping snd up most of the time.

Any ideas or suggestions? or is this correct (I'd be quite surprised if it was to be honest)

Thanks in advance


PS. If you armory me, please excuse the horrible gemming of my leggings, this was done before i had a clue and I've been too cheap to redo them properly apart from one to get the requirements for my meta, and because when i get enough badges (eventually) i'll be replacing them with badge ones. Also that is my grinding gear not my actual PVE setup.

 

• Aldriana

So, I punched in your gear + spec from the armory, and with default buffs I'm getting a recommendation of 5s3r. Thus, I imagine you're using other than the default suite of buffs, so I can't comment specifically on what you're seeing.

That said: I can guess. With your gear + spec and default buffs, the recommended 5s3r is doing 1306.4 DPS, and 1sXr shows 1289.13. So it's definitely plausible to me that with buffs adjusted a bit, you could see pull 1s5r pull ahead, which thus begs the question... why? And how?

Well, it's pretty simple, actually. Without Combat Potency and Imp SnD, the value of SnD is lower than for a typical combat rogue; meanwhile, with Serrated Blades, the value of Rupture is higher than usual - hence the energy efficiency of the two moves is much closer than usual. Unfortunately, you don't have the ability to keep both up all the time, so one of them has to drop.

Also, it might be noted, that a 1-point SnD is actually still useful, whereas Rupture becomes significantly less energy efficient below 3 points. Hence, your reasonable choices are a) keeping SnD up as much of the time as you can, and weaving the occasional rupture as energy permits, or b) keep Rupture up as much of the time and weave SnD in as you have energy. The difference is: the first cycle has to be 5s3r to get a decent sized rupture, while the second can go all the way to 1s5r to do so. And since 5s3r doesn't maintain 100% SnD uptime *either*, it turns out that the massively increased rupture uptime is enough to offset the loss of SnD uptime.

So, it's actually conceivable to me that this is right - with the usual rupture-boosting talents and not having the SnD-boosting talents, the two ability are actually closer in quality than one might expect.

That said: this sheet was written under the assumption that keeping SnD up should be one's top priority, so when you do get into these odd cases where rupture catches up, I can't 100% guarantee that the cycle recommendations come up with the exact optimal thing.

 

drumbum

While I was looking around for something else, I noticed that the 4pc T6 bonus is being added multiplicative to Surprise Attacks, Opportunity, and Aggression, although I believe it was found to be additive not long ago. I don't actually remember who did the testing or which thread it was reported in, though.

 

• Aldriana

I remember hearing it asserted to be additive, but I don't recall ever seeing testing of that fact. I don't imagine it would be too hard to do - just a bit of rat-stabbing should do the trick. But since it doesn't make a notably large difference anyway, I'm going to hold off on changing it until we have something definitive.

 

drumbum

Well, that's up to you to decide, although I think it's obvious that it's additive by simply noticing that all 4 spells use the same "effect" as indicated on the Wowhead database.

Surprise Attacks
Apply Aura: Add % Modifier
Value: 10

Opportunity
Apply Aura: Add % Modifier
Value: 20

Aggression
Apply Aura: Add % Modifier
Value: 6

Improved Backstab and Sinister Strike (Slayer 4pc)
Apply Aura: Add % Modifier
Value: 6

 

• Aldriana

Certainly it's obvious. That doesn't mean it's true. If there's one thing that we've discovered over and over and over about this game, it's that not everything works the way you think it should. Thus, personally, I don't put much stock in anything that isn't backed up by in-game testing.

 

Ricard

Now, before the Shard of Contempt appeared in this spreadsheet, I've been normally assuming that the Shard is, like people have been asserting, among the best in the game, certainly the second best available to me. Now that it has appeared in the sheet, though, it has pulled ahead of the DST by a considerable margin for my gear. This was something I didn't expect. Is it a bug in the sheet, or did the Shard come to be considerably more valuable as the proc rate was pinned down? I also did a small test within the sheet, switching each the DST and the Shard for the Bloodlust Brooch (for lack of readily being able to input no trinket at all), and I saw a 21 DPS loss by switching the Shard out, and only a 19 DPS loss for switching the DST out. The closest clue I can come to suggest why this might be so is that my hit rating is rather low (250s with hit rating food), and that would lower the value of DST which relies more on the proc for its EP than the Shard does. I thought I'd post here, though, incase it was indeed a sheet bug.

 

Dontmindme

It was tested here...
[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet

 

• Aldriana

So, I think the answer here is as follows:

1) The proc rate on Shard of Contempt turned out to put it towards the high end of the range of the quality estimates that were originally made. While the cooldown was longer than we initially expected, the proc rate was much higher, giving uptime periods toward the high end of the range. As such, the typical characterization of it, so far as I know, is that it's a bit behind DST on the whole, particularly since many rogues go past the Expertise cap with it.

2) Since you're not Expertise capped - and in fact, have no expertise from gear at all - that raises the value of Shard somewhat. Also, since your gear level is a bit lower, the relative value of AP is higher, so the AP proc on Shard is a bit more powerful relative to the other effects than for some trinkets.

So, basically: yeah, it's really that good. As your gear improves DST will likely pass it for a while, though at ultra-high gear levels Shard tends to catch up for different reasons.

 

Towelette

What would those reasons be?

 

• Aldriana

Haste increases the value of all stats except haste. Thus, the more haste you have, the lower the marginal value of haste becomes. That is, it still adds the same amount of DPS, but all the other stats are adding more DPS that they previously were, such that it starts to be better to stack other stats relative to haste. Since Sunwell itemization has quite a bit of haste on it, the value of Dragonspine Trophy relative to it's competitors drops somewhat.

Meanwhile, because of the fact that most T5+ rogues are already vaguely close to the hit and expertise caps, the same effect does not apply to them - the amount of hit and expertise you have is the same in T5 as it is in Sunwell. Thus, the value of hit and expertise does not have this scaling issue, and, as such, as your AP increases, the value of these points is as high as it's ever been. Hence, the Expertise on Shard is positive-scaling relative to other trinkets, the haste on DST is negative scaling, and it's been shown that eventually Shard may edge ahead.

 

nelalas

For what it's worth -- and this is purely hypothetical -- there could still be great synergy between Dragonspine Trophy and the Blackened Naaru Sliver depending, of course, on the proc properties and internal cooldown of the latter. One could hypothesize that, while Shard of Contempt can nudge ahead of Dragonspine with cutting-edge equipment, acquisition of the Sliver may give Dragonspine a hefty breath of life.

 

• Aldriana

The two procs would of course synergize nicely, but I rather doubt the cooldowns will align well enough for the effect to be relevant. Thus, I'd expect Sliver to actually *decrease* the value of DST, as it provides quite a bit of haste rating in it's own right.

 

• Aldriana

So, since the Arena 4 stats were released recently and there were a few bugs in 0.10.1, I decided to release a quick 0.10.2, with the new gear + bugfixes in it. And, while I was it it, I put in Thori'dal and an estimate for Blackened Naaru Sliver. I'm not going to claim it's 100% accurate, but given that the fashion of procs in 2.4 so far has been 45 second internal cooldowns with a very high (10%+) proc rate, it seems reasonable as a first guess to estimate Sliver as having a 45 second internal cooldown and a 10% proc rate. Once someone has one and can test, I'll update this, of course; but just in terms of planning ahead, it seems like a reasonable place to start.

Note: If you download this sheet, and something isn't working the way you expect, please read the FAQ section in the first post before posting a question about it. Many of the questions that get asked in this thread are already answered below.

Version 0.10.2, 5/2/08: Download

The interesting thing out of all this is that if I enter in my ideal endgame gear (including Sliver) and Brutallus-level raid buffs, DST does indeed drop out of the 2nd spot... but it's WSC that replaces it. AToL and Shard aren't far behind, but in a fully raid-buffed situation, I find WSC to be ahead by a small margin. This is hugely fight and guild dependent, of course, but it's still an interesting result.

 

Dampfbrumsel

Two requests:
1. Gem Grouping: There are only four viable gems for end game raiding, but they're all over the drop down list. Everytime we fiddle around with gems, we have to scroll a lot to get from 5 Hit / 5 Agi to 10 Hit to 5 Agi / 7 Sta to 10 Agi. I'd find it very handy if those four gems were groupped together at the bottom of the list so we could select them without having to scroll ever!
2. CoR / FF uptime: The sheet assumes a 100% uptime for both spells, but for my raid, that's just not the case. We don't have a feral druid, so our trees have to shift into bovine form before they can apply FF, which of course is only second on their priority list, hence no 100% FF uptime. And on Brutallus, our Warlocks have to remove CoR before every Stomp (or Smash or whatever that's called), so our tanks don't die. On average, we end up with roughly 60% uptime on CoR and 80% on FF. Under these conditionts, I doubt that WSC will ever outperform DST on 7685 armor bosses, but I don't really know.

 

• Latito

While it would be nice to add CoR and FF uptime sections.. just a few notes on what you said:
-Faerie Fire can be cast from caster form, Faerie Fire (Feral) is the cat/bear equivalent. FF has no cooldown and can be cast immediately again if it resists, FFF has a 6-second CD (which is why most decent ferals will pre-cast it 7-8+ seconds early). Not to mention, ferals are great.. your guild should get one.

-CoR really doesn't add much AP to the boss after you factor in Imp Demo. You shouldn't need to remove it pre-stomp. However, if tank deaths are an issue and dps is not (consider it wastes 2 warlock GCD's and lots of melee dps).. I suppose it is *something* you can do to help the healers and tanks keep the fight going.

Disbanded Recruiting!

 

drumbum

That's what he meant by "bovine form." Think about it for a second. :P

 

• Latito

Oh dear.. damn cows. What if I was thinking of those alliance people!

Disbanded Recruiting!

 

• Aldriana

Today's entry from the "I can't belive no one noticed this before" files:

The stats on the MH Warglaive are entered incorrectly - the sheet has 29 agi 22 sta instead of the correct value, 22 agi 29 sta. I'll fix it in the next revision.

 

majicsystem

Color me nooblet but what program are you all using to view and punch in your stats? I've got Excel Viewer and can see the spreadsheet but cannot edit it with my own stats or gear.

 

drumbum

If you do not have access to Microsoft Excel (not Excel Viewer), the OpenOffice.org suite (which is completely free) includes a spreadsheet viewer that will work fine with this spreadsheet.

 

bluus

I'm not sure if this has been noted before but I found a small glitch in the most recent edition of the spreadsheet. Guardian's Pendant of Triumph is incorrectly named as Vindicator's which causes the formula to overvalue that item (not sure why, apparently it counts something twice), or does so at least in Open Office.

 

• Aldriana

Ah, yes, I see what's happening. Renaming it will solve the problem. This will also be fixed in the next revision.

 

Alluring

Is there possibly another site that the spreadsheet is hosted on? I can't seem to connect to the savefile.com site.

Thanks!

Alluring

 

paper

Aldriana, if I'm reading this correct, sheet calculates each decimal of expertise as dps gain, for example 15.3expertise nets more dps than 15.0 expertise, while game uses decimal cutting system making 15.3 and 15.0 expertise same thing.

Anyone who can confirm that beahviour of game mechanics or am I mistaken ?