dplafoll

I'm not sure if this has been asked or addressed, but I couldn't find a recent answer when I searched the topic. Has Berserking been modeled and added to the sheet somewhere that isn't visible? If not, do you plan on doing so? It would be enough(for me at least) to model it just based on 100% health when it's used, and maybe set up like Bloodlust is now with a number.

off-topic: The spreadsheet is an incredible tool, and keep up the good work.

 

• Aldriana

Berserking is modeled, and activated automatically when you select your race as Troll. It assume that you're always at 100% health when you use it.

 

dplafoll

Thanks! I was hoping it did so I can see what difference it makes when comparing two different rogues.

 

nelalas

I was thinking about this issue the other day when reflecting on some previous posters that incorrectly tried to assess gear and talent changes. My initial conclusion was that an easier method of comparing spreadsheet output than the current hand-writing of "before" and "after" results would be a helpful addition. Now certainly the current EP system provides a suitable currency for comparing two competing pieces of gear. The problem, as you have mentioned in the above quote, is that the EP of stats is a dynamic value that changes when one makes a gear change; hence, there is an inherent problem in using EP values for the current gearset to evaluate a non-equipped piece of gear. Thus, converting the EP difference between the two competing pieces into a DPS value probably takes one further from the truth.

A "simple" solution would appear to be providing additional cells for the spreadsheet to re-run its calculations using the new piece of gear and comparing that number to the previous gearset -- essentially automating the hand-writing technique at the cost of development time and maybe some more system resources. Probably not too hard to do for one item. The problem, though, as I foresee it, is applying this method not only to each gear slot but for the three listed upgrades within the slot. This equals 17 slots * 3 items/slot = 51 items for the spreadsheet to simultaneously calculate output for whenever a change is made, or, in other words, duplicating the spreadsheet 51 times each time with a different piece of gear. I'm not convinced that this would be a particularly efficient change, at least not in Excel. So, perhaps, this is an issue better suited for a time and framework that is more supportive of such a change and, for now, users should continue to manually compare spreadsheet output.

 

• Aldriana

There are certainly more detailed and accurate ways of comparing items than those currently in the sheet; however, the ones that are in are in some sense already good enough; the sheet is not infinitely accurate to start with, so having EP give an answer that's 2 DPS different than what you get from switching items is not a major concern to me - the sheet isn't accurate to 2 DPS anyway. The only place where I think EP are in any way inaccurate are for trinkets, and I have some ideas for how to improve that while still using EP.

That said: a more detailed comparison system would certainly be desirable; however, running all possible options just isn't going to work - the sheet's already painful to maintain with 6 sheets; I refuse to increase that number. Something might be done with macros, but as that tends to make life difficult between Excel and OO (plus the fact that I'm not particularly experienced with them in the first place) makes that idea distasteful. This is actually one of the advantages I see to doing this in a programming language - it would make it very easy to do this sort of extended, detailed, comparison. So when and if I ever finish that, I will probably do the more detailed item scoring stuff; in the meantime, I'm inclined to go with the status quo.

 

TheCaretaker

Hey all,

I am having trouble trying to figure out how a rogue out DPS me by 143 in ZA. I figured his gear was better but I got 129 less DPS when I pluged him in to the sheet. I used recap as a meter.

I was only in for 16 minutes. I did reset recap when I got in. Had 4 tries on Zul’jin then we lost to many. The thing that gets me is that he out DPS me by 143 and was in combat 2 min less than me and he didn’t even have poisons on. If he had those 2 min and poison his DPS would have been even higher.

http://www.darksidecenarius.com/files/SS%20DPS.jpg

http://www.darksidecenarius.com/files/Manz%20DPS.jpg

http://www.darksidecenarius.com/files/SS Gear.xls

http://www.darksidecenarius.com/files/Manz Gear.xls

He has a lot of ZA gear and only has haste and armor pen on me.
I don’t think it’s the armor pen since most of my agv dmg are higher.
He has a ton more actual hits though, like my 248 normal whiteDMG hits to his 311.
This must come from the haste right?

I use 4-5s/5r. I ouly used Evis between Troll to Bear transform.
Maby it’s a problem with my technique?

Thanks

 

◊ Shaker

Because Zul'jin is a great place to try and apply the results of a sustained DPS spreadsheet. Can you seriously not think of a single phase (hint: eagle) of that fight where it's 100% random who's on target and who's not, and gear/spec differences would be a minor, minor concern?

(hint: eagle)

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

• Aldriana

So, FYI: there will be a 0.10.3 tomorrow with the bugfixes of the past few pages, plus the two new items of interest off KJ's loot table (Cloak of Unforgiveable Sin and Hand of the Deceiver). I'd actually release it tonight, except for the aforementioned issue with being unable to open the sheet in Excel after it's been saved in OpenOffice, and I only have OpenOffice at home.

In the meantime, a brief assessment of the new items: The cloak is about a 75 EP upgrade over Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape, and the Fist is better than anything not called "Warglaive of Azzinoth". And, in point of fact, it's pretty comparable to the MH Warglaive if you don't have the OH (though the set bonus does give the Warglaive set a significant advantage).

 

theguth

I tried searching for this but there was too much noise to filter out any meaningful info. Sorry if this is repeted, just wondering if the spreadsheet has energy queuing with the AToL modeled or not? I'm not technical enough with spreadsheets to know if thats possible.

Context for the question is that I'm trying to decide between using Shard/Mother boots or AToL/Slayer boots or Shard/Slayer boots. I know the last one puts you over the cap but the spreadsheet actually tells me that last option is best.

 

Azuj

Here's a tip, the spreadsheet doesn't lie.

Edit: Since theguth was unable to search the thread for longer than 10 seconds to discover his answer and to prevent a repeat of a prior discussion, here is a quote from Aldriana regarding this topic

 

theguth

It does if it doesn't incorporate energy queuing which was the question of my post.

Edit: Thank you for your reply. That's all I was asking.

 

• Aldriana

Well, the real answer is: it depends on the fight. Energy queueing can increase the value of AToL slightly (very slightly) on some fights, but it's not really well-suited for all fights. If you're not maintaining a fairly steady cycle, the trinket's value drops off fairly quickly. So while it's a great trinket for Brutallus, it's not nearly so good on trash or some of the other bosses. Thus, the real answer is: think about the structure of each fight, and it's advantages and disadvantages, and see which trinket works out to make the most sense.

 

Akakage

If anyone could do this for me since I don't have excel yet, I'd be very grateful. I just want to know which of these 2 sets performs better over one another or in a hybrid combination. I'm not sure if the s2 swords performs better than these fists if you consider combat swords with the 5 points into sword specialization or the latter with 5 into fist specialization.

I've gotten responses from some rogues who used it and some who heard that the fists resemble BT weapons and pull more dps. And some who say that the s2 swords lag 1-2% behind the fists. I would be grateful if someone could figure this out for me just on a basic level with the results of the fists, s2 swords, and mainhand fist and offhand s2 sword. I'm using the 20/41/0 combat talent set up for the fists, s2 swords, and 15/46/0 set up for the hybrid combination.

Thank you so much to anyone who figures this out for me!

 

Caladnei

Try OpenOffice, it's downloadable for free and works as well with the sheet.

 

Akakage

I tried and it said that it wouldn't work with open office.

 

Myrx

I am a little bit more interested in which offhand I would use with the KJ Fist. Blade of Savagery, or Grip of Mannoroth?

 

clii

good to see enhancement/ret items in end game. Cloak isnt as large of a dps increase as it should be

 

saedo

I just plugged the items in myself. Blade of Savagery still wins by a long shot over any offhand fist even with the KJ fist. And KJ fist was actually slightly better that Warglaive, only about 1dps above for me so pretty on par with each other. By itself of course, no set bonus involved.

The cloak itself seems to be a huge increase when I plugged it in myself.

 

• Aldriana

Version 0.10.3, with bugfixes and a few new items:

Note: If you download this sheet, and something isn't working the way you expect, please read the FAQ section in the first post before posting a question about it. Many of the questions that get asked in this thread are already answered below.

Version 0.10.3, 5/22/08: Download

In terms of the questions that have been posed in the last few posts (though you now have the sheet so can get your own answers, but, nevertheless:

Hand of the Deceiver in combination with Blade of Savagery beats Warglaive/Savagery with some gear setups - i.e., it's very, very, good. Dual Glaives is, of course, superior by a fair margin.

Deceiver/Savagery beats Deceiver/Mannoroth, at least for me.

And as I've been asked this by a number of people have asked me about this: my ideal gear set for end-Sunwell (which assumes my professions - LW/Enchanting - and the buff setup I usually run with, but is still possibly informative to some of you):

[Duplicitous Guise], Glyph of Ferocity, RED, Spinel
[Clutch of Demise]
[Slayer's Shoulderpads], Pyrestone, Amethyst, Greater Inscription of Vegeance (or Might of the Scourge, if I ever get so lucky)
Cloak of Unforgivable Sin, 12 agi, Lionseye
[Carapace of Sun and Shadow], 6 stats, Pyrestone, Amethyst, Pyrestone
[Slayer's Bracers], Assault, Pyrestone
[Gloves of Immortal Dusk], 15 agi, Pyrestone x2
[Slayer's Belt], Spinel
[Leggings of the Immortal Night], Nethercobra, Pyrestone x3
[Slayer's Boots], Cat's Swiftness, Spinel
[Stormrage Signet Ring], +4 stats
[Band of Ruinous Delight], +4 stats
[Blackened Naaru Sliver]
[Dragonspine Trophy]
[Warglaive of Azzinoth], Mongoose
[Warglaive of Azzinoth], Mongoose
[Thori'dal, the Stars' Fury]

I'd also carry a second pair of [Slayer's Boots] with 12 agi and a Pyrestone, plus [Warp-Spring Coil], and swap them out based on fight. The gems can be moved around as necessary, of course, but this strikes me as the right total amount of gem agility and hit to land at a nice spot relative to the various breakpoints.

 

Myrx

Thanks Ald. I plugged in a bunch of different combos and came up with this. (Using my personal ideal armor set)

#1 - MH Glaive / OH Glaive - 2944.97
#2 - Hand of the Deciever / OH Glaive - 2877.34
#3 - Hand of the Deciever / Blade of Savagery - 2858.59
#4 - MH Glaive / Blade of Savagery - 2849.19
#5 - MH Glaive / Dragonscale-encrusted - 2838.34
#6 - Hand of the Deciever / Grip of Mannoroth - 2818.98
#7 - S4 / Blade of Savagery - 2808.61
#8 - Muramasa / Blade of Savagery - 2807.93
#9 - S3 / Blade of Savagery - 2783.49

If it looks like I messed one of those up let me know, but I thought people might like to see how it all stacks up.

 

royaljester

I was doing some figuring and looking at perfect group setups, perfect raid buffs, perfect gear/gemming, food, demonslaying, Brutallus, 2 heros (so 3.33 for a 10 mins fight or 2 in 6mins) and pretty much going the limit on every aspect of raid dps and I came out with, on a human, about 3900dps on Brutallus.

Now, my question is, how does this compare to other classes in perfect gear/raid/group setups in their completely endgame gear?


Also ald, I was doing essentially what you're doing with your end-game gear and plugged it in. The sheet still shows replacing those 4 spinels with pyrestones to be more dps? Not much, granted, but wouldnt that breakover point come into play in the spreadsheet and thus put those 4-10agi ahead? Or is this just a personal choice you made and sticking with it?

 

• Aldriana

It has to do with hit caps and vitality breakpoints. Yes, you can get more damage on a Brutallus-style fight by dropping 15 agi for another 15 hit. But, you Vitality breakpoints won't work out as well, so it'll be only a fairly minor DPS increase; you'll lose about a percent of dodge for your minor DPS increase; and you'll be over the hit cap against 70s and 71s, which will hurt your trash DPS plus DPS on sub-72 adds for those fights that have them (and there are at least 2 in Sunwell). So if you're going for the absolute maximum balls-to-the-wall DPS on Brutallus... yes, you can do better. If you're looking for a set of gear that does 99.9% as well on Brutallus and better in a number of other areas... I prefer the setup I proposed. Which should you do? Well, that's up to you. I know what *I* want to do, but I think there's a number of reasonable options for high-end gear selection.

For instance: Executioner MH is a viable option. Bladed Chaos Tunic instead of Carapace can be made to work. Hard Khorium Band instead of Band of Ruinous Delight is a reasonable choice. Golden Bow of Quel'thalas does have some advantages relative to Thori'dal (beyond the obvious one, that being the fact that you're a lot more likely to be able to get one). And Shoulderpads of Vehemence + T6 gloves instead of T6 shoulders + Immortal Dusk also can yield a valid gear set. It all comes down to what your priorities are; some of those options give more survivability, some give stats that are better for PvP, some do better or worse on trash - it's all a matter of your priorities. I'm of the opinion that the above setup is the best for general PvE DPS, but if you have an alternative setup you prefer, that's fine too.

 

Dorvan

Does this comparison take into account the DPS gains/losses from posion talents based on using a Combat Swords vs. a Fist/Sword spec?

 

◊ Vulajin