Rosvall

It's more than that. They now have a 25.5% base miss chance, and not 5%. They do not anylonger proc combatpotency. They do not anylonger proc WSC.

 

• Aldriana

It's true. Except that:

1) Most raiding rogues have at least 200 hit rating. Many have 300. Either way, the difference in actual miss chance is perhaps another 6% - meaning the damage difference is 1% instead of .5%. Not a large effect.

2) The combat potency thing was never modeled in the first place, and is similarly a small effect anyway; it increases your combat potency procs by 5%, which works out to roughly 10 energy a minute, or about 6 dps. Again, not a large effect.

3) Even with Sword Spec proccing WSC, 75% or more of the procs are from Sinister Strikes. Thus, the time between cooldown ending and the next proc occurring will increase about 30%... but since that time is significantly less than the cooldown, we find that the actual increase in uptime is minimal. Moreover, WSC isn't a particularly good trinket in the first place. So an already-mediocre trinket received an almost-trivial nerf. Also not a huge concern.

All in all? Depending on your gear, the sword spec change might lower your damage output a bit - maybe 20 DPS. Is this totally negligible? Of course not. But given that we're seeing differences of up to several hundred dps between swords and daggers, in no way does this "definitly bring the sword-combat dps down and in-line again with dagger-combat" as was asserted. Swords are still a lot better.

 

Karmon

Out of personal curiosity I modified the v0.6.2 sheet for a 5s/4r daggercycle.
I think I got it right but a couple of questions linger.

First, what changes were made:

• changed 'free CP' to accomodate 3pt ruthlessnes
• changed 'Enegry requirement'
• changed SND uptime
• changed BS/sec 1/2/3 and BS/Sec (at the bottom of the sheet)
• changed Rupture dmg for 4pt rupture
• changed the duration of rupture to 14 in "rupture uptime", "Total Ruptur DPS"

Now the questions:

1. "Cycle Energy" seems to lack engergy required to use Bladeflurry and Adrenalin Rush
2. Netherblade 4pc modeled as 0.15% increase in Ruthlessness seems wrong to me. Thottbot shows Netherblade 4pc as a 15% "Seal Fate" proc and Ruthlessness as a total different effect.
3. I do not fully understand the reason for the three blocks of calculations for the different procs. Is that to model "proc on proc" effekts of trinktes? If so why only three?
4. The cycle length calculated from "Energy required" and "Energy recoverd" is longer than calculated in the DPS Sheet.

I hope someone can shed some light on this.

Edit:
The difference in DPS between 3s/5s/5r and 5s/4r is for the Gear-sheets is only 2-3DPS.
Now the DPS-sheet predicts something about 11 DPS. Somthing is amiss.
And yes I modified the DPS sheet with the assumptions of the Gear sheet (Armor of 5000, Hit/skill dodge/skill etc.).

 

Shogun

I have a quastion, i cant deside what better shoulders Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless (i have atm) or Shoulderpads of the Stranger ? It seems for me what Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless better coz they have much hit and 2 gems, but yes they have less ap and crit. Or just +dagger skill rating that mean so much?

sry for my english

 

Urraca

Aldriana, I'm curious to know about the mediocrity of the WSC. Im currently running Dragonspine + Romulo's. I have an extremely good chance at tsunami and WSC.

The other spreadsheet, recently adjusted it's trinket values and WSC seems to have 10 DPS over tsunami raid buffed. Is this incorrect? Should I definitely go for Dragonspine + Tsunami?


Also,

With the new sword spec, my SCT is just spammed with 'extra attack' these days. I know a sword specialization proc can proc WF. But can a windfury attack proc sword specialization? I'm getting some really crazy chains (seen 5 extra attacks spam my screen at once), and I like it a lot.

 

kennyxedge

I was noticing this last nite, as well. There were times where my screen was completely spammed with "Extra Attack". I didn't get a chance to check my combat log to see what was going on, but I plan to /combatlog my entire Raid duration tonite to check it out.

If you are alone, you will be your own man.

Wavering - Undead Shadow Priest - Korgath

 

• Aldriana

Looks about right. Only other cells that would need to be modified are Raw Rupture DPS (which I assume you did and simply forgot to mention) and Ashtongue Uptime (assuming you want accurate numbers for the Ashtongue trink)

The Blade Flurry energy cost, I confess, is neglected - I'll add it in in a future revision.

Adrenaline Rush costs no energy to activate; the energy gains from it's use are included in the Total Energy Recovery lines (which is why it's 10.5 + combat potency regen instead of 10+ combat potency regen). Upon contemplation I've decided that's not the best way to model it, since AR doesn't help you keep cycles up; in some future revision I'll probably change AR to not affect what cycles you do, and instead model it as simply free additional backstabs/sinister strikes (or some such), since that's probably a more accurate model of the real situation.

Netherblade is indeed a separate effect from Ruthlessness, but it doesn't matter for the model; whether it's independant or not, it still, on average, adds an extra .15 combo points. Now, the probability distribution will be different (i.e. the chance to get get 2), but the average is still the same.

As for the three blocks of calculations: This is needed to model haste procs. The fundamental difficulty of things like Dragonspine Trophy is that, because they increase your attack rate, they increase the number of procs you get - including Dragonspine Trophy itself. Hence, you need some estimate of your haste uptime before you can compute your actual haste uptime. This is what the 3 calculation blocks are for - they're using an iterative approach to get a good estimate of haste uptime that is used to compute the actual haste uptime at the end. As for why 3? Somewhat arbitrary, admittedly, but basically because that seemed to be enough to get a decent estimate of haste uptime. I mean, consider the total haste values gotten after each iteration:

Starting: 1.3600
After First Iteration: 1.5397
After Second Iteration: 1.5661
After Third Iteration: 1.5700

So, the first round of calculations got us into the right ballpark; the second round is closer still, and the third round is presumably even closer. Note that the estimate changed by less than half a percent between the 2nd and 3rd; the 4th round would make even less difference than that. Basically, 3 rounds seems to give a pretty good estimate, and while 4 or 5 or 20 would be more accurate still, I deemed this close enough and stopped for reasons of usability.

In terms of differences between this sheet and the other: half the reason I wrote this sheet is because I didn't feel the other was particularly accurate. Given which, I fully expect the two sheets to get different answers at times, because they're doing calculations in different ways. You'll have to decide which one you feel is more accurate. Personally, I think this one is a lot more accurate, but then, I'm probably biased on this matter .

 

• Aldriana

Well, I can't speak in general, but, for instance, with my gear plugged into this sheet, I get the following scores for trinkets:

Dragonspine: 453.8
RPV: 155.8
Tsunami: 152.2
Abacus: 129.9
Warp-Spring: 128.8

Note that this is with the old sword spec. Updating for the new sword spec drops WSC down to 124.8.

So, from the perspective of this sheet, Dragonspine/Romulo's is the best current trinket setup. The issue with RPV, of course, is that it's getting all it's benefit from hit; for instance, I have the trinket right now and can't use it, because I'm already at 308 hit. The great advantage of Tsunami Talisman (and the reason I want it) is because it provides the same amount of benefit with much less +hit, meaning it's usable with a wider range of gear.

As for why the other sheet gives different values: well, first, see the note in my previous post about differences between that sheet and this. With regards to the specific case of WSC: I'm not up on how the other sheet models it, so I can't comment in detail, but I think at least part of it is the fact that the other sheet has a much lower base armor value for mobs, which inflates the value of armor penetration effects.

 

Urraca

If the other sheet has a higher value for base armor, shouldn't that only effect the overall DPS, and not the effect of armor penetration exclusively? For example, debuffing 500 armor off a mob with 10k armor should yield the same DPS increase as a 500 armor penetration on a mob with 5k armor? I'm not sure how this is modeled in either sheet, but that seems like the ovelry-simplified logical conclusion to me. Or does penetration/armor scale in an odd fashion?

 

• Aldriana

Penetrating 500 armor out of 5k is a larger percentage damage increase than penetrating 500 out of 10k.

Formula for armor mitigation is 10557.5/(10557.5+x).

So, an opponent that has 10k armor takes 51.36% damage, while one with 9500 takes 52.64% damage - an increase of 2.49%

Meanwhile, an opponent that has 5k armor takes 67.86% damage, while one with 4500 takes 70.11% damage - an increase of 3.32%.

Regarding WSC is particular: I looked it over a bit and though of a better way to model it; I don't expect it to make a huge difference, but the current sheet is undervaluing WSC just slightly. It's actual value is probably about 5 AP higher than listed; I'll put the new model in the next release.

 

Karmon

Your assumption is correct. Remindes me to make posts with the sheet open for reference


Caught again I really need to check my facts before posting......

Original I modeld it as the sum of two coinflips but forgot the factor of 2 for the case if both proc simultanously. That was where I "decided" the "something is not right".
Damn I need to dust up my statistics and probablity knowledge.....

Thanks for the detailed explanation.

I went a step further and added a couple of dropdownboxes where you can add SND cp usage and at the moment rupture CP. Probably I will add an eviscarate as well.
So you can, in a fashion, select your personal cycle and compare it with other cylces.
Not as fancy as the DPS sheet but still helpful IMO for deciding what gear to use.

So if you'r interested I can sent my sheet to you for inclusion in the official version.

 

Iquark

Hey Aldriana, I was wondering if you had any ideas about implementing the Rod of the Sun King in a future revision. I'm wondering if the energy proc could make up for the lack of sword spec, as I picked it up for fun this week.

The simple math on WoWHead showed somewhere around 2 energy per second from the 6 ppm proc, and it seems as if that might be able to compete with sword spec working in conjunction with all the haste we have access to now.

Any thoughts?

 

• Aldriana

So, the first concern is that, according to some procwatch parses in the Rogue DPS spreadsheet thread, the proc rate is nowhere near 6 PPM. From his numbers, it looks closer to 2, maybe 3. If the proc rate is as low as that, Rod of the Sun King is basically doomed. So it would probably be worth trying to get some confirmation on that, one way or the other.

Secondly, this opens the whole can of worms of maces/fists, which, as mentioned a few pages back, are a royal pain in the you-know-where to model. So I don't have any immediate plans to add it to the sheet - at least, not until I come up with something brilliant in terms of adding other weapon types to the sheet.

That said: it is possible to get some quick-hack estimates of the dps such a thing would provide. If you're looking at going mace spec only - that is, getting an OH mace speccing 19/42 or 20/41 - this can be approximated by just turning off sword spec. Swords without sword spec are basically maces, for most purposes of damage calculation. So to get a damage estimate of Rod of the Sun King, what you'd want to do is:

1) Set Sword Spec to 0
2) Replace one of the MH swords with the stats of Rod of the Sun King (damage range, speed, and the AP)
3) Go into the sword calc sheet and modify rows 56, 88, 120, and 156 to reflect the higher energy regeneration; if you just want to model it as 2 energy per second, just change the 10.5 to a 12.5.

This should spit out a reasonable damage estimate number; you can then compare this to the damage estimate for the actual swords (by using the unmodified sheet) and get some idea as to what is going to be better.

Now, the more interesting case is using Rod of the Sun King with a sword OH, and speccing 16/45 to get sword spec (or 18/43 to get sword spec but not weapon expertise, or 19/42 or 20/41 to get sword spec and WEx but not mace spec, or... well, you get the idea). I would expect one of these to be optimal, but this is *much* harder to calculate (going back to the "not putting maces/fists in the spreadsheet" thing). If people are actually interested in this, I can hack out some numbers to get some dps values, but you'd sort of have to take my word for the results as I'd need to do a major chop job on the sheet to get anything productive out of it.

 

Iquark

Well I'm going to check out some more stuff on it, it seems like a pretty decent ppm so far. I will go and do my own procwatch on it this weekend sometime to add some more data into the pool, and then go through and change the energy regen as such.

For now, going from combat daggers to grabbing this thing I'm sitting with a Shiv OH and actually went with full dagger and mace spec. Thinking was that mace spec was for the weapon skill, and then I only had to cut out 2 points in imp poisons for the full dagger spec for the OH. In my mind 2% crit on the OH was much better than another 4% poison proc rate since I always have a shammy in my group and deadly stays up all the time.

I figured that this would work out well for the extra .1 speed off the OH till we get a touch further in BT and then I could take the points out of daggers and put them in swords when a blade of savagery drops.

Of course this is all deciding on whether or not this energy can make up for the lack of sword spec as it is!

 

• Aldriana

I suspect mace/sword beats mace/dagger, but I'd have to hack on the spreadsheet for a bit to be sure. Regardless: if you could put together a half hour of autoattacks with Rod + no OH to get a proc rate estimate, I'll hack together a damage output estimate for you.

 

Valketa

I'd really like to see in the next update of this atleast the Drakrfist Hammer, Dragonmaw, and Dragonstrike maces added as well as the Blackout Truncheon. I know I'm an odd one, but I am PvE mace for raids, with a high concentration on haste and having it fuel combat potency to fuel my damage. Having SnD always up, and with both haste procs on the maces going off, and both mongoose's procc'ing, as well as dragonspine - and adding the use of abacus and blade flurry, my procs can all sustain them selves like a snowball effect for quite a while, and I'd like to see an easier way to compare this with other equipments.

 

• Aldriana

Well, when I had any mace, I'll add all maces - the problem is, dealing with all the edge cases of having all possible mixes of weapon type is painful. Doing a sword sheet is easy, doing a mace sheet is easy, and doing a fist sheet is easy - but making one that does all 3 - and compares between them in a sensible way - is a royal pain in the you-know-where. I'm working on it, but it'll probably be a few weeks.

 

Iquark

Well back form an hour and a half procwatch with Rod of the Sun King, and the results were not exactly what I had hoped for.

Gear setup:

Only using Rod in the MH, no OH, however there was mongoose on the Rod.
No Dragonspine, No Tsunami (I know I probably didn't need to take that off)
No Thundering Skyfire Diamond on.

Data:

Hits: 2140
Procs: 101
Time: 1h 33m 41s
Hits/Proc: 21,1
Procs/Min: 1

This was straight beating on a blasted lands mob, had a wonderful time on my 40 priest tossing a heal every few minutes. As stated, there were no haste procing items except the Mongoose enchant, so that could slightly skew the results.

It appears as if the Rod is no where near what I had expected from it. A little over 4,7% proc chance brings it to be less common than mace spec!

Excluding Combat Potency procs, it looks as if this will add approximately 1,36 procs from white damage and 0,705 procs from SS. Bringing a grand total of around 0,33 extra energy per second.

That's a VERY rough estimate of course, it's late and I'm tired, but from that alone it seems as if this is definitely not going to be better than Talon, or FoV.

Of course from this it is definitely not worth your time to work maces into the sheet it seems. I'm going to play around with the energy regen parts of the sheet in the morning to see what the spreadsheet dps gain is with these stats, and I'll get back to you all.

EDIT: Oh I forgot to add, rough estimate of proc dps: About 15 with what I have worked out so far.

 

zabuza6

I've noticed theres a big problem with the individual dps listings of items that proc haste effects. i.e. Dragonspine and Thundering Skyfire diamond. I get roughly the same dps listing as you for trinkets, but in reality Dragonspine is actually nowhere near 450dps. Try this: put on the hourglass instead of the dragonspine. The hourglass should be ~100dps depending on the rest of your gear. Then switch to the Dragonspine. In your 'Rough DPS' field at the top, going from hourglass->dragonspine only gives you about 80dps, but for the individual trinkets, it claims Dragonspine is about 300dps better than hourglass. The same thing happens with a thundering skyfire vs relentless earthstorm diamond comparison. According to the values next to the diamonds, it looks like the thundering is 21 dps better than relenteless, but when you actually do the diamond swap in your gear, my overall dps only increases by 8 or so.

I haven't spent enough time delving into the spreadsheet to be able to explain this yet, but I *can* say that this over-valuing of haste procs in the dps field next to them appears to only happen with haste procs. I don't see how dragonspine could be more beneficial to me than Netherblade chest or legs, but when I take the value of hourglass, and add the delta I get in overall dps when switching to dragonspine, i get ~180dps which seems more accurate.

Is there an easy explanation for why its this way? Or is it just some oversight that can be fixed?

 

paper

Yes there is, those numbers are not dps values, but ap or agi equivalents.

 

Trazhenko

The number next to the item is the equivalent AP, not a DPS estimate. In other words, if instead of a haste effect, the dragonspine was just "Equip: xxx AP", based on the benefit the trinket is giving you, that xxx would be 450.

On a side note, mine only says it's worth 397 :-/

 

zabuza6

Lol, thanks :P.