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06/05/07, 12:55 PM
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#181
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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Originally Posted by Fielding
The +1.70 AEP that the Vashj belt was ahead previously can all be changed with different gear/raid buffs, etc and the socket colors will also change value as new gems come out. Therefore, in my opinion, it comes down to comparing +1.14% hit and +.63% hit, +.25% crit, -.25% dodge(something you can only get from weapon skill and not taken away post hit cap)
What do you guys think? The main thing that makes me want to stick with Vashj is that there are benefits from the +wep skill rating that will not be removed post 308hit (wexp/precision). Honestly, I think I might be a bit biased though, because I'm very hopeful toward weapon skill being worth a flip.
Sorry if my numbers are way off =0
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So, couple of points here:
1) Due to the nature of procs and the like, I'm fairly certain that 1% hit is actually superior to 1% crit right now, and comperable to -dodge (slightly less since -dodge also effects yellow attacks, but that's a reasonably minor effect since a dodged yellow attack only costs you about 20% of the damage of the attack). So you're comparing 1.14% hit to 1.13% of other mods - looks pretty even, to me. Which, conveniently, is what the spreadsheet seems to be showing for most people - they're within a couple of AP.
2) Any rogue that's looking to make this decision is in a position where they're starting to pick up Tier 5, which has very little +hit on it. The rogues in my guild that have started to pick up T5 have found their hit drops considerably - one rogue in my guild was at 309 hit last week, and having picked up T5 shoulders + legs is down to 273, even after reshuffling some other gear to get more hit. So I'm of the opinion that the hit cap is somewhat less of a concern for such rogues.
3) On the other hand, we *don't* understand weapon skill very well, so it's entirely possible that the value of Vashj belt is higher than we are estimating.
In the end, I would say: they're pretty comperable. There's probably a slight argument to be made in favor of the Vashj belt, but it's very very close - once I got one, I wouldn't bother with getting the other until no one else needed it.
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06/05/07, 1:38 PM
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#182
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Paladin
Magtheridon
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Originally Posted by Aldriana
2) Any rogue that's looking to make this decision is in a position where they're starting to pick up Tier 5, which has very little +hit on it. The rogues in my guild that have started to pick up T5 have found their hit drops considerably - one rogue in my guild was at 309 hit last week, and having picked up T5 shoulders + legs is down to 273, even after reshuffling some other gear to get more hit. So I'm of the opinion that the hit cap is somewhat less of a concern for such rogues.
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I'm not sure I agree with that. I'm a rogue that is in a "position" to pick one up and the only immediate piece of t5 I'll be grabbing will be the gloves, which is a +hit upgrade. According to both pf's and your spreadsheet the Stranger shoulders, which I currently use, rank higher than the t5 shoulders. I'll be content with Brigand's BP over deathmantle as well. I guess once I can get enough pieces to put together a 4pc I'll be taking a big loss in +hit, so I see your point there.
Either way, I really wish we had some more data on +wep skill. Not knowing for sure the impact +wep skill makes bugs me.
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06/05/07, 2:17 PM
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#183
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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Stranger shoulders are better for dagger rogues, sure. They *also* have no hit.
I mean, I'm not saying that you can't still reach the hit cap in T5 - just that it's not quite so immediate a concern as it is for some less-geared rogues. I mean, I could hit 350 hit without even resocketing anything with current gear, and could probably break 400 if I really wanted to - in fact, if I get the next couple of upgrades in the wrong order, I'm going to wind up in a situation where I'll be hard-pressed *not* to have 320+ hit rating. At Karazhan/T4 levels of gear you have to work *not* to be hit-capped. When you get up to T5 level itemization, this is less true, I think. BBV has lots of hit, to be sure, but not a whole lot of other things do. Given which, I think it's fair to say that the fact that Belt of Deep Shadow has hit rather than other mods is not a particularly large disadvantage.
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06/05/07, 4:44 PM
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#184
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Von Kaiser
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Well, no matter what you say, weapon skill is being severely underestimated in this sheet... Because of the fact that you have incorporated no hit cap.
The fact that weapon skill allows you to get more hit on your gear is something that's not counted, and kind of a big deal.
(If hit is worth .3 more ap than agi on your sheet then every point of hit the weapon skill allows you to get over the cap adds .3 more APEP to your weapon skill item.) This is a big deal and somewhat of a venue to get a better estimate of the value of weapon skill.
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06/05/07, 5:20 PM
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#185
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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Weapon skill doesn't allow you to break the hit cap - the hit cap represents 0 miss chance. It does reduce the chance of your attacks being dodged, but that's fully modeled in the sheet. So unless the benefits of weapon skill are significantly different than stated, the sheet should be fairly accurate.
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06/05/07, 7:30 PM
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#186
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Von Kaiser
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Originally Posted by Aldriana
Weapon skill doesn't allow you to break the hit cap - the hit cap represents 0 miss chance. It does reduce the chance of your attacks being dodged, but that's fully modeled in the sheet. So unless the benefits of weapon skill are significantly different than stated, the sheet should be fairly accurate.
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When I said that, I was thinking that the Dodge removed from the roll table by weapon skill is made up miss, where you are saying it's made up by hit. I'm not really sure right now which it does. I bet you hadn't thought this was possible either, needs to be looked into, maybe.
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06/05/07, 8:02 PM
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#187
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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Well, either way it's modeled. Either
a) +skill converts dodges to misses, or
b) +skill converts dodges to hits.
In the first case, the weapon skill itself provides no benefit other than raising the hit cap, because dodges and misses both do no damage. Hence no damage is directly added, but an equal amount of value is gained by raising the hit cap.
Meanwhile, in the 2nd case, the weapon skill provides no benefit to the hit cap, but adds damage directly
Either way, it's modeled. Personally, I'd be willing to bet that it converts dodges to hits, because that fits better with the understood mechanics.
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06/06/07, 2:48 AM
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#188
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Kul Tiras (EU)
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Can I ask that you add the following gear:
Rest of the Assassination set
Band of the Exorcist
Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight
Pity those of us still stuck with some pre-Kara loot :/
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06/06/07, 3:24 AM
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#189
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Paladin
Magtheridon
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While on the subject of gear additions. Can you please add the exalted Thrallmar bow, Marksman's Bow or whatever? Thanks ;x
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06/06/07, 3:48 AM
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#190
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Mike Tyson
Night Elf Rogue
Doomhammer
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Originally Posted by Idris
Can I ask that you add the following gear:
Rest of the Assassination set
Band of the Exorcist
Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight
Pity those of us still stuck with some pre-Kara loot :/
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Well, the reason Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight isn't in is because it's harder to get than Helm of the Claw, and significantly inferior thanks to the new metagems.
The rest... I'll think about it. What I'm trying to avoid is having huge lists of items for every slot, most of which will never be used by any halfway serious raider. I mean, if you're not doing at least Karazhan and Heroics, this sheet isn't gonna be accurate for anything you're doing anyway, so I figured starting at 5-man gear was reasonable - nor do I feel a particular obligation to include every possible 5-man option so long as a couple of the better ones get hit.
Anyway, I'll review the list of included items in the next release and try to add a few more low end options. But I do want to avoid having more than 2 or 3 5-man blues per slot.
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06/06/07, 3:56 AM
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#191
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Von Kaiser
Blood Elf Rogue
Destromath (EU)
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On the point of gems, i would love if you added them in a different format. I have a hard time remembering what all the gems do. I'd prefer seeing "Glinting Noble Topaz (4 agi 4 hit)" anytime to "Delicate Living Ruby" .. was that ap or agi again? 
Hope you get the point.
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06/06/07, 6:24 AM
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#192
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Kul Tiras (EU)
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Originally Posted by Aldriana
Well, the reason Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight isn't in is because it's harder to get than Helm of the Claw, and significantly inferior thanks to the new metagems.
The rest... I'll think about it. What I'm trying to avoid is having huge lists of items for every slot, most of which will never be used by any halfway serious raider. I mean, if you're not doing at least Karazhan and Heroics, this sheet isn't gonna be accurate for anything you're doing anyway, so I figured starting at 5-man gear was reasonable - nor do I feel a particular obligation to include every possible 5-man option so long as a couple of the better ones get hit.
Anyway, I'll review the list of included items in the next release and try to add a few more low end options. But I do want to avoid having more than 2 or 3 5-man blues per slot.
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Fair enough about Stealther's Helmet and I understand why you'd want to keep the blue items at a minimum. Thing with the Assassination set though is it's probably the most common blue items people have for the slots when starting to raid. My guild is currently in SSC and all our rogues still have at least one piece of Assa set or the Stealther's helm (new metagems are nice but on the other hand they seem a waste to put on something you're planning to replace as a priority). Due to being quite rogue heavy and unlucky with drops, I guess.
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06/06/07, 1:26 PM
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#193
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Glass Joe
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I'd also second the low end gear plea. Even doing Kara there are not a lot of options for some of the armor, back, ranged weapons and trinket slots.
I'll also admit that once I looked at it, it isn't too hard to add my own gear (it would be easier if the columns that I needed to update were all grouped together or had their cells colored) but it's painful to do it for each sheet version (also a pace that's slowed down)
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06/06/07, 1:58 PM
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#194
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Piston Honda
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Originally Posted by Fielding
While on the subject of gear additions. Can you please add the exalted Thrallmar bow, Marksman's Bow or whatever? Thanks ;x
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Use the Vetrans musket or whatever is currently selected when downloading the spreadsheet. It is the same thing, just the alliiance version.
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06/06/07, 2:38 PM
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#195
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Glass Joe
Night Elf Rogue
Lightning's Blade
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Any plan to add fist weapons soon?
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