Talon of Azshara is 0.1 second slower, thus your sword spec procs will hit harder. This and the slightly superior stats is probably why the Talon beats the Merciless Gladiator's Slicer.
Windfury procs will also be affected. Overall Azshara and Slicer are pretty roughly equal, with Talon coming up on top raid-buffed. For PvP Merciless is unquestionably better!
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
Yeah, haste to head and leg don't really compete with the existing enchants.
However, thinking about it, at very high gear + buff levels, haste to gloves *does* catch up with 15 agi in terms of sheer damage output. Now, of course, I think it'll be a few months yet before anyone is that geared, and it's pretty rare to be that buffed... but as it is possible, I should probably throw haste to gloves into the sheet.
I wouldn't say you would need that much gear to use haste over agility.
Couldn't you just model haste as a .95% increase in white DPS?
If that's the case, I'd imagine it wouldn't take that much gear to surpass the 15AP and .38% crit from 15 Agil to gloves.
Well i simply replaced one of the "lesser" enchants with haste rating enchants... so you can simply click around for trial and error. And well "disappointing" is understatement in that case
I know that including fists and maces is a low priority atm and personally I agree with this, no reason to spend time researching cleary inferior specs (unless they buff the rod). There is perhaps one notable exception however, using mh fist and oh sword. With both weapon specs the only dps talents you're giving up is maybe a couple points in vile poisons. I don't expect this combo to beat sword+sword but it would be interesting to see how close it is, the slightly higher yellow damage has some merit in certain fights. I know there's not a huge amount of fists available, al'ars and the bladefist are pretty rare, but BBWP and ofc S2 mh are quite common.
This is entirely self-serving ofc since I just got al'ars mh fist (morogrim is being very stingy) but would it be possible to add these few mh fists to the sheet and assume fist spec when they're equipped, or would it be a lot of work?
I've also heard that the bladefist procs quite a lot, has anyone done any testing on this? Did a quick search on these forums but didn't find anything.
On a different note, one small addition I would like to see in the sheet is some kind of total defensive value of your gear for comparisons. Something like the rough dps estimate so that you can track both offense and defense when changing several items and gems. I find that I'm often not comparing one piece of gear with another directly but rather one set of gear/bonuses/gems with another set. If one piece is changed several others may need to be changed as well due to set bonuses and the hit cap. Having the rough dps visible makes these comparisons a lot easier but the defensive changes have to be added by hand currently. Also a way to easily change the defensive weighting would be nice but that's been mentioned before.
Anyway thanks for all the work you guys are putting into this excellent sheet.
I wouldn't say you would need that much gear to use haste over agility.
Couldn't you just model haste as a .95% increase in white DPS?
If that's the case, I'd imagine it wouldn't take that much gear to surpass the 15AP and .38% crit from 15 Agil to gloves.
Daemona's already alluded to it - but it's kind of a funny case.
As the high end of gear stands at the moment there are lots of haste options out there (mongoose/trinkets/slayer's bonus etc.) So you end up getting more worth from 15agility as a dmg component that scales with the rest of your haste.
I played around on the spreadsheets and even when I removed all haste bonuses I couldn't get 10 haste above 15agility. The crit component scales with gear too, apparently at the same rate as 10haste. What you really need is something that boosts white dmg alone (like the old weapon skill) to push haste above agility.
Daemona's already alluded to it - but it's kind of a funny case.
As the high end of gear stands at the moment there are lots of haste options out there (mongoose/trinkets/slayer's bonus etc.) So you end up getting more worth from 15agility as a dmg component that scales with the rest of your haste.
I played around on the spreadsheets and even when I removed all haste bonuses I couldn't get 10 haste above 15agility. The crit component scales with gear too, apparently at the same rate as 10haste. What you really need is something that boosts white dmg alone (like the old weapon skill) to push haste above agility.
I'm not fully understanding what bearing other haste factors have on the 10 haste rating itself, maybe I'm unfamiliar with the whole mechanic.
I'd assume that you mean, haste rating is additive with those other factors, in-turn, it is not as valuble. Is that what you were eluding to?
So it would be safe to say assuming the 1% increase in white DPS via the enchant, is incorrect?
edit: Now that I think about it, I believe it was mentioned in another thread, but which buffs / abilites that pertain to a rogue are taken as a % haste boost, and which are additive?
I'd assume SnD is % based, while mongoose, and other items, such as the haste items out of BT are summed together via haste rating.
Amateur questions, but I figured I would get those things straightened before making any claims.
Well, I'm back from vacation, so development can now resume. As brief comments to the posts in the last week:
Re: Modeling haste enchants. Well, the incremental value of haste is computed on the sword/dagger calc sheets, so a direct comparison is possible. Increasing white damage by .95%, on the other hand, does not give accurate values. Regardless, when I actually punched everything in, I found that end BT gear + full raid buffs + consumables would put haste to gloves just barely ahead of agi, but anything less than that came up short.
Re: Adding other weapon options. I actually have good news on this front. While on vacation I was thinking about the spreadsheet some (specifically, the question of how to do adjustable dagger cycles) and, while so doing, I came up with an approach that, in addition to getting adjustable dagger cycles, *should* also make it practical to add maces and fists as options. So I'm hopeful that I will be able to add those in the next major revision. As doing so involves a complete overhaul of the calculation pages, it will probably take me a couple weeks - I'm aiming for the end of July, but don't hold me to that.
Re: Haste stacking. SnD, BF, and Mongoose are all percentage based, and applied independantly. I believe Heroism is as well, but I haven't checked, honestly. All haste rating items add together and are then applied.
So, for instance, if you have SnD, BF, 2xMongoose, and DST all up at the same time, the actual attack speed increase is 1.3x1.2x1.02x1.02x1.3091.
A 1% speed increase thus does not equate directly to a 1% increase in white damage, both for reasons of the mechanics of stacking, as well the effects on procs.
Edit: Oh, and Re: racial abilities. Good call. I'll get the human racial in the next revision - other abilities (berserking, etc.) will have to wait, but that ones simple to add so I will toss it in.
I'm not fully understanding what bearing other haste factors have on the 10 haste rating itself, maybe I'm unfamiliar with the whole mechanic.
I'd assume that you mean, haste rating is additive with those other factors, in-turn, it is not as valuble. Is that what you were eluding to?
So it would be safe to say assuming the 1% increase in white DPS via the enchant, is incorrect?
edit: Now that I think about it, I believe it was mentioned in another thread, but which buffs / abilites that pertain to a rogue are taken as a % haste boost, and which are additive?
I'd assume SnD is % based, while mongoose, and other items, such as the haste items out of BT are summed together via haste rating.
Amateur questions, but I figured I would get those things straightened before making any claims.
I meant in that the synergy starts going both ways, as it were.
When you start getting extra haste from other items, that provides more of a buff to the 15 agil than the 10 haste rating.
I was a long time user of Pf's spreadsheet. I found it very helpfull and I've been leary to move on to the newer spreadsheet as I've found some things that just dont add up. However, this spreadsheet here seems much more accurate and in line with what Pf had going. For instance. 2.2.6a has the Serpentshrine Shuriken as having more dps than the Steelhawk X-bow, which I find very hard to believe. Not trying to slam the other spreadsheet but has anyone else notice some things that are a bit off with it?
At the moment, it's only hosted on Savefile - if someone would like to rehost it somewhere else, that would be fine with me - I don't really have any good places to do it myself. I can make a new Savefile link if people think it'll help, but other than that I don't have many ideas.
Hmmm, there seems to be something else at work in my case, I get the same problem with your rehost (hangs at 456 kB). Firefox and IE both give the same result, so I'm guessing there's something strange going on with that file and my network here at work. Will try it when I get home.
Edit: Worked fine from home.
Last edited by PessimiStick : 07/17/07 at 7:52 PM.
For an explanation of the Optimal Hit box, see post 201.
When it turns red, that's a warning that the piece-by-piece optimal socketing puts you over the hit cap (so you should swap out some hit for agi on gems)
aldriana, do you plan on adding a next stat sheet or page like the old Rogue speadsheet had? I really found that informative, but of late that spreadsheet has become an abomination of itself and i can't bring myself to use it anymore.
Couple of other questions, i haven't looked at it closely yet, but it is easy to add gems if i choose to do that, or is it gonna turn out to be more work than expected?
Finally, i am not sure if i ever noticed it in the thread, but how should we go about reading the Dagger/Sword Calc sheets, i have never been able to get a good handle on it?
aldriana, do you plan on adding a next stat sheet or page like the old Rogue speadsheet had? I really found that informative, but of late that spreadsheet has become an abomination of itself and i can't bring myself to use it anymore.
Couple of other questions, i haven't looked at it closely yet, but it is easy to add gems if i choose to do that, or is it gonna turn out to be more work than expected?
Finally, i am not sure if i ever noticed it in the thread, but how should we go about reading the Dagger/Sword Calc sheets, i have never been able to get a good handle on it?
The way the calc sheets currently work is that column B of each contains a computation of how much damage you do with the gear you have selected, and then columns C through whatever repeat that calculation with 1 more strength, 1 more agi, and so on. So the "next stat" values are the last row in the calc sheets at the moment.
However, this will be changing in 0.7; I'm going to be replacing the Sword and Dagger calc pages with a set of 7 new sheets, which will have the following effects:
a) adjustable dagger cycles
b) allow additional weapon types
c) ease the restrictions on talent selection
d) create a much more readable location for the next-stat info.
At the moment I'm still catching up on things after my vacation, so I haven't done a whole lot of work on these changes yet, but I hope to have more time to work on them next week.
As for adding gems: my understanding is that it's a bit painful, although honestly Darlal did most of the work on that part of the sheet so I don't know for sure.
Adding a non-unique gem is very easy - copy a gem of the same color, insert copied cells, edit stats (same as gear). Unique gems are obviously prickly for obvious reasons (they're nice and the sheet can't not recommend one if you have one equipped already).
Thanks for that explination Aldriana, I would have never figured that out. From looking at the data, it doesn't seem like the hit one is actually working right now (your hit value doesn't change), but since you are changing it, I don't think it really matters.
As for gems, I figured it out and it wasn't that bad. I was added a few unique gems that I have in my gear and I don't want them recommended since I can only have one equiped at a time and didn't have to dabble through all that stuff on the bottom of the page.
Thanks for that explination Aldriana, I would have never figured that out. From looking at the data, it doesn't seem like the hit one is actually working right now (your hit value doesn't change), but since you are changing it, I don't think it really matters.
As for gems, I figured it out and it wasn't that bad. I was added a few unique gems that I have in my gear and I don't want them recommended since I can only have one equiped at a time and didn't have to dabble through all that stuff on the bottom of the page.
The hit one is calculated by dropping a hit hating a little further down in the sheet, he discusses it on page 3(?).
It's done a little differently, but still calculated correctly.
The hit column is actually done inverted; it calculates based on losing a point of +hit rather than gaining a point of +hit. It's also done my directly editting the miss chance rather than adjusting the hit rating value. Both of these things are done so that the value of hit rating doesn't zero out the instant you hit the hit cap.
First of all, I'd like to say that I love the sheet, I really do!
Now I'm struggling to find out what to think of armour reduction in a raid situation. Your sheet gives me a rough DPS value of 1500 while in the real world I average about 1300. I suppose the difference can be accounted to the amount of armour that is assumed in the sheet. I'd love to fiddle around with this value, but I failed at Excel and wasn't able to find the relevant cells.
I guess my question has become obvious: Where can I change the mob's armour? :P
07/08/07, 9:55 PM
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