I haven't downloaded the sheet yet, but thanks for getting an update out =).

I do have one question, what did I miss about Weapon skill? You mention new findings, but what are they? Are they in that monster Weapon Skill thread here on the site?

Re-hosted on tater-tot.com

http://www.tater-tot.com/files/Rogue_Gear_0_7_1.xls
http://www.tater-tot.com/files/Rogue_Gear_0_7_1_OO.xls

The monster weapon skill thread indeed had some new findings. I'm not wholly caught up on them myself, but the short version is: You really, really, *really* want to have at least 355 weapon skill as a melee class. The first 5 points provide some ludicrously large amount of benefit, while later points contribute somewhat less. This behavior is not included in this sheet, but as long as you have those first 5 points it should not be a problem.

Compiled weapon skill conclusions so far (some still in development):

vs. bosses Level 73:
It appears that with 350 weapon skill, you have a 28% miss chance dual-wielding and a 9% miss chance single weapon (mitigated by your to-hit rating, precision, etc)
With 355 or more weapon skill, you have a 25.5% miss chance dual-wielding and a 6.5% miss chance single weapon (mitigated by your to-hit rating, precision and 0.1% per weapon skill above 350, possibly different for single weapon)
What happens at increments of say 351, 352, 353, 354 weapon skill is still unclear but it appears there is a big gap between 354 and 355.

Also, weapon skill rating fractions are all dropped to the even integer. So for example, 15 weapon skill rating that should give 3.8 weapon skill seems to give only the benefits of exactly 3 weapon skill.

Dodge, parry, block, etc are still under development but it doesn't look like the old 0.04% per skill and 5% incidence is necessarily accurate for all of these, may work for some, may not for others. More testing is necessary to provide further conclusions beyond something isn't quite right.

Ald are you talking about 5 extra points beyond weapon specialization, or does taking that cover those 5?

2/2 Weapon Expertise gives you 360, which is more than the 355 asserted. So yes, Weapon Expertise covers it.

However, as the sheet now supports hemo builds, it's conceivable that people will be checking builds that do not include WEx, and in these cases the answers will be inaccurate.

I'm not aware of any changes that would significantly increase the value of haste, so if you are observing such a thing it's likely a bug.

However, I'm pretty sure that Crystalweave Cape scored higher than Vegeance Wrap even in 0.6.3, so if that's the only sign that something is wrong, I'm not totally convinced there's a probelm here.

Regardless, if you'd like to send me your gear/spec so I can plug it in, I'll take a look and see if anything is obviously wrong.

Maybe I'm just not taking into consideration that the spreadsheet doesn't account for how far you are away from the hit cap.

I know your working hard on a lot of things for this spreadsheet, is there any plans to include fists in a later release? I like this sheet better then the dps spreadsheet, as values seem more realistic. The only thing it seems to be missing is being able to look at specs such as combat fists, and the fist MH sword OH combo. Although i think i already know the answer to which spec is best, its a good source to be able to show other rogues in my guild.

Not to derail this, but does this mean Mul Rogues have a higher miss rate than Combat Rogues? Are there any specific Post numbers i can read through to see some of this information? I may just go through the entire tread since work is kind of slow right now.

Ald, a question about the sheet. Can you give me a brief run down of the Cycle Sheets? I get what each sheet is trying to do. But what i dont understand is how i can see the different Values for X. For example, looking at 5sXr, i see rupture sizes on line 108. But am i supposed to read those against the final DPS values on the bottom of the page like you stats equivalnaces work, or i am i off base?

It means that the base miss rate of a mutilate rogue is higher - unless they get at least +5 weapon skill off gear. Hence, it becomes very important for Mutilate rogues to get either A) Fang of Vashj B) Belt of 100 deaths, or C) Shoulderpads of the Stranger *and* one of the weapon skill gloves.

Each of the calc sheets named after a cycle computes the damage for the named cycle. It does so by computing the "best" cycle of that form. Best is somewhat of a loose term, though, in that there will be situations where, for instance, the Xs5r cycle does not compute the highest-damage cycle of that form. However, the set of 6 sheets working in concert *should* between them work out what the best possible cycle is for a given gear setup (more on this later). This where the DamageCalcs page comes in; for each combination of stats, it computes the maximum possible damage across all 6 pages, and uses this to value the stats.

To see what value of X is actually being used, consult line 300 of 5sXr and 1sXr, line 293 of Xs5r and Xs3r, or line 310 of 5sXr3s.

So, for instance, with my current gear filled in, the value of 5sXr.B300 is 5, which means that that sheet is computing my damage for the cycle 5s5r. 1sXr.B300, however, is 3.73, which means that it's computing damage for the cycle 1s3.73r.

Now, obviously, there's no such thing is a 3.73 point rupture; in reality, you'd have to use either 3 or 4 point ruptures. However, quantizing cycles to whole numbers would cause discontinuities in the value of stats, which strikes me as bad on the whole; the purpose of the sheet is not to be a 100% accurate damage calculator (although, I like to think it's pretty good). The purpose of the sheet is to get good values for all the stats, and using continuous values for the cycles helps quite a bit with that.

Anyway: 5sXr, 1sXr, and 5sXr3s all attempt to find the largest rupture you can work into the cycle while maintaining 100% SnD uptime. This should always be the highest damage cycle available. Note that all ruptures are forced to be at least 3-point ruptures, as the damage dropoff from 3 to 2 is considerable so it's unlikely that a smaller rupture will ever make sense.

Xs5r and Xs3r, on the other hand, compute the smallest possible SnD that will allow the cycle to be sustained. This is *usually* the highest-damage cycle of that form, but it is possible to come up with situations where it's not. However, it can be shown that in situations where it's *not* optimal, a 5 point SnD is. So, for instance, Xs5r.B293 for my current gear is 3.14. So it's probably the case that 3.14s5r is my best cycle. However, it's also possible that 5s5r might be better. Fortunately, as noted above, 5sXr is computing *that* possibility, so in general one or the other of those should give the best possible cycle of the form Xs5r.

Long story short: for a given level of energy regen there are 3 cycles of the form XsYr that might be optimal. Between the 4 sheets of that form, all 3 possibilities are covered, so between them the optimal cycle should always be computed. 5sXr3s and 5s are tacked on for those cases where energy regen is insufficient to sustain even 5s3r. So, in general, these combinations should always give your best dps option.

I have answered this question twice in the past 20 posts. I suggest scrolling up a bit.

Cool thanks for that explination and it makes perfect sense. Here I thought the next stat thing was pretty cool, but this may be a little bit better. Really good job on the sheet.

Oh and thanks for pointing out the DamageCalc sheet, I didn't even notice it.

Edit: A few bugs, When i put on the WW chest, one of the gem slots vanish. It still counts the gem, but doesn't show it. It seems like the trinket rankings may be a little off also. WSC is ranked at the same level as the DFT.

Regarding the WW Chest thing: fairly simple bug, but as it's purely a display issue I'm not going to bother rereleasing until I fix a few more bugs.

Regarding trinkets: in my copy of the sheet I show WSC ranked appropriately - with my gear (i.e., what the sheet is first downloaded with) I show WSC at 165, a bit ahead of Tsunami (154) and well ahead of DFT (112). If you could send me your gear/spec (or email me a copy of the sheet with your stuff filled in) that would help me with diagnosing it.

Speaking of bugs: I just realized I made a mistake with adding the new maces/fists; while the scoring for all of them is correct, the actual DPS number reported with Syphon, Rod of the Sun King, Dragonstrike, Dragonmaw, or The Bladefist equipped will be incorrect. I'll fix it later tonight, or perhaps tomorrow.

They're up on tater-tot.com now as well.

Whenever i put a fist in my offhand in the newest version its gives a 503 error for all dps values on the sheet. Open office version(if that makes a difference).

Ah, indeed. Fix for that coming shortlyish, along with the other listed bugs.

Since the Rogue DPS spreadsheet includes gear / upgrades, what is the intention behind this one?

(and I do not wish for this to sound as scathing as it does!)

This Spreadsheet had the gear-upgrade and value part of different gems/enchants before the dps spreadsheet.
And generally i like the layout more

This sheet also models items like Dragonspine and Warp-Spring Coil differently. The DPS sheet assumes an equivalent passive value for them. This sheet models them as a proc.

I would love to see the epic gems from bt/hyjal added to this. Thanks for your great work in advance.

Any chance the gem selection and resulting optimal hit could take into consideration the required gems for meta gems? As far as I can tell this isn't taken into account unless I missed an option somewhere.

On the regular rogue forums it appears to be blasphemy to suggest that fist spec with a dagger OH could rival pure sword spec using dual swords for pve DPS. However, it does appear to me from the spreadsheet that fist/dagger and an identical talent spec (20/41 with 4 points in Imp Poisons) OTHER than in relation to weapon specialisation results in fist/dagger coming out at pretty much exactly the same DPS as sword/sword (sometimes a little more - sometimes a little less depending on gear).

I think what happens is that as one's gear gets towards the top end and if you factor in raid buffs swords come out more favourably - but towards the middle to lower end fists are better. It seems to me that gear placing you at around the 750 DPS unbuffed mark with 308+hit (that is with boss mob armour on) yeilds more from fist/dagger but as you go above that swords move incrementally ahead (raid buffed on 750 base results in about 1170 with the most common buffs and swords are a mere 5.5 DPS ahead then).

Can this be right? Does the spreadsheet factor in the benefits of sword spec fully? It has been pointed out (somewhat bluntly) to me that swords are just plain better full stop but as far as i can see (a) they are not better in the low - mid range of gear - they are worse (b) they are only very fractionally better using insanely good gear. Keeping in mind fists give +crit for better pvp viability and burst i've concluded that fist/dagger is pretty nice.

Finally - a lot of people mention dual specialisation fist/sword but it has become apparent to me that you are better off avoiding double specialisation and putting the extra points into poisons.........but the point of this post really is to ask if the spreadsheet factors in the benefits of sword spec in a way that people recognise to truly reflect the benefits of that spec.