Don't worry about my bug report in reference to the trinkets, it was user error.

There are a couple reasons I decided to make this sheet.

First, I've never been particularly impressed with the accuracy of the other sheet. Dating back to when I first hit level 60 I preferred to use my own calculations than rely on other people's, and the other sheet was no exception. This became even more true when the expansion came out and some of the effects just plain couldn't be modeled accurately by the other sheet. So, one of the ways this sheet is differentiated is that it is (in my opinion, at least) vastly more accurate.

Second, at the time I started work on this sheet, the Rogue DPS sheet had basically no provision for comparing gear whatsoever. All it had was a little next-stat block buried in one of the middle sheets, which was even less accurate than the rest of the sheet was. It is my understanding that they have since improved this somewhat, but most of those features arose after the creation of this sheet. And, it might be noted, the solutions applied for those fixes only work in Excel; for people who use OpenOffice (such as myself on my home computer) the other sheet is totally worthless.

In general, my main characterization of the other sheet is that it has gotten bogged down with a lot of unnecessary features and gismos and doodads, which interfere with it's core usability. Fundamentally, it's still a DPS sheet with gear comparisons tacked on, and it shows. This aspires to be a really elegant sheet for gear comparisons, that happens to include a pretty decent damage calculator. So if you're attempting to decide between a couple of different specs, you may find the other sheet to be more usable (although not necessarily more accurate); however, if you've already decided on roughly what spec you're interested in (which is fairly straightforward, given than there's only about 4 fundamentally different specs worth using as a raiding rogue) and are trying to figure out what gear upgrades to focus on and in what order - this sheet is miles ahead of the other, in my opinion.

It's on my to-do list for this sheet (along with half a dozen other things). Fortunately, it seems to be one of the easier changes to make - it's the unique gems that are going to be harder. I'll probably try to push out a version with the epic gems and other easy fixes sometime this weekend.

Not easily, alas. I mean, the fundamental problem is as follows. You have a set of gear, which has a dozen gem sockets in it. 2 of these gem sockets need to be changed to blue gems to activate the metagem. How do you know which 2 to change? It's a reasonably easy thing to figure out as a human (the two that activate the most powerful set bonuses, basically). But it's sort of hard to define in a general way in a spreadsheet.

The first thing I'd note is that for a rogue to only do 750 DPS, your gear needs to be fairly weak; using only quest rewards, BoEs, and 5man drops (not heroics - regular 5 mans) you can put together gear that will do that much unbuffed. So for the average raiding rogue - which is who this sheet is targetted at - 750 DPS is very much low-end.

Secondly, I don't think "unbuffed" is necessarily the fairest comparison. Again, a typical raiding rogue is going to be using at least *some* buffs.

So, with that in mind: yes, it's true that at low levels of gear, unbuffed, swords do not possess a particularly large advantage over the other available options. However, I think it is fair to say that as gear increases, swords pull further and further ahead. For instance, in my current armor with Arena 2 weapons, my buffed DPS with swords is about 1470. Switching over to Arena 2 fist + dagger, it drops to 1430.

Now, 40 DPS isn't a *huge* deal, but it is enough to say that swords are pretty clearly better from a PvE DPS perspective. And, frankly, I would dispute the claim that they're inferior for PvP - the burst damage potential of Sword Spec is not to be underestimated.

As to the underlying question regarding whether Sword Spec is modeled correctly: I was pretty careful to include everything, so as far as I know it should be correct. This is not to say that there might not be a mistake somewhere - but I'd need something a little more specifically amiss than "swords don't beat fists by as much as I expected" in order to track it down.

In reference to the above post re: fists vs. swords, it should be noted that the other dps spreadsheet corroborates the result. That is, swords beat fists, but not by much (the numbers I've seen hover around 1%), and much of that difference is attributable to the fact that available OH swords are better than the available OH fists (specifically, the S2 OH fist sucks). As well, the other sheet corroborates the fact that combo fist + sword spec does not ofset the points that could have been spent in poisons unless you run with windfury (in which case, it's about a draw).

As for the pvp vs. pve comparison, the slight edge would go to swords as well, not only because of the slight dps increase, but because that additional 5% you are critting with fists is mitigated by resilience, whereas the 5% extra attacks are not (or are not as much).

Still, I went with fists for playstyle reasons. As a sneakerpimp it's essential that my primary attack be a slap.

Any thoughts for why the present sheet shows vile poisons > imp poisons whereas the other dps sheet shows the opposite (at least with my gear)?

I realize there are likely many small differences between the estimates dps outputs, and that trying to reconcile all of them would be futile...but since the choice of where to put those poison talents is one many raiding rogues face (and least those of us who cannot count on windfury) it would be nice to know which numbers to trust.

Thanks.

Well, I'm tempted to just say "I'm right, they're wrong", but let me try for a more informative answer...

First question would be "are you using the same poisons in both cases". What you should observe is that with Deadly Poison, Vile Poisons is better, whereas with Instant Poison, Improved Poisons is better. If you're using both IP and DP (i.e., one on each hand), my recollection is that Vile Poisons is still better - I know I made a post about it a month or two ago, but I don't remember in which thread - try searching around a bit to see if you can turn it up.

So, if you do have the same poisons selected in both cases, I'd characterize the answer as follows:

If you're using Deadly, this sheet is probably right, and the other is wrong.
If you're using Instant, this sheet is probably wrong, and the other is right.
If you're using both and the answers are close, it's conceivable that both sheets handle it correctly and one is just more accurate. My guess would be this one, but I'm probably biased.
If you're using both and the answers are pretty different, it's presumably a bug in one or both sheets, and would require more investigation.

I thought I had this problem before, but the set bonus box isn't an indicator of whether your selections met the requirements, it's an indicator of whether the sheet's "optimal" gem recommendation meets the socket bonus.

So it's basically a "Yes get the bonus" or "Screw the bonus and use these 8 hit gems" kind of field.

But the optimal recommendation doesn't take into account the gems needed to activate the current meta gem.

I have another question that's been bothering me for quite some time, the spreadsheet seems to treat +hit in a linear fashion, 200 + 10 hit is evaluated the same as 308 + 10 hit (which is somewhat of a waste) is this the case so even if I ruin my hit rating I should still get +haste instead?

Strength is a dps stat, but agility gives more dps, so should you completely trash your strength in order to get a better stat? Yes.

The interaction of haste and hit is definitely more complex than this, but in general, haste is a more powerful stat, so yes, you will drop below the hit cap if you go for absolutely optimal gear.

Also, as Ald posted above, it's far FAR easier for a human to make the decision of "Where should I put my 2 blue gems" than it is for the spreadsheet. The spreadsheet recommends whether or not the set bonus on a particular item is worth going after or not - usually you'll have a few items where it's not, put your blue gems in there, or in a set piece with blue slots that the bonus IS worth going after.

BTW, you're playing your rogue, not the spreadsheet, right? :P

Absolutely true but I've not until very recently begun getting my hands on some +haste gear like Crystalweave Cape and Swiftstrike Bracers so naturally I'm wondering if I should ditch my golden oldies like Vengeance Wrap and Shard-bound Bracers in favor of these new shineys. I can see how a loss of hit is easily overcome when you hit faster thus landing more hits in a raid buffed situation (as yes, the spreadsheet shows)

Right - the recommendations don't factor in metagem activation, so it (possibly mistakenly) recommends using hit gems (or whatever) for socketing Belt of Deep Shadow - this is what the "Socket Bonus?" column means.

Regardless of what this column says, however, if you have two blue gems in it, the socket bonus is being factored in to computations. Just because it doesn't think you should be using it doesn't mean it doesn't use it if you have matching gems in.

It's true that the spreadsheet does not account for the hit cap; the reason for this is more or less the same reason it doesn't account for metagem activation. It's performing a piece-by-piece optimization of your gear, rather than trying to set up all your gear for you at once. Therefore, while it's capable of recognizing whether or not metagems are activated or that you're over the hit cap, it doesn't really have any good way of knowing where to drop hit or which gems to swap out to solve this problem.

What this means is, basically: this is a tool. It provides some useful information. There are a few things that you still need to figure out for yourself, though. Fortunately, in the case of metagems, this is pretty easy - you want to put the blue gems where they're going to activate the most (and most powerful) set bonuses.

For instance, consider the optimal endgame gear, which includes the following socketed items:

Cursed Vision of Sargeras (YM)
Slayer's Shoulderpads (YB)
Slayer's Chestguard (YYB)
Insidious Bands (Y)
Slayer's Handguards (B)
Slayer's Legguards (B)
Shadowmaster's Boots (RY)

So, the spreadsheet will tell you to use hit gems in every one of those sockets except the red socket in the boots, where you will want a hit/agi gem, meaning we'll need to swap out two hit gems for agi/sta. Well, the natural place to put these blue gems is in the items with blue sockets, so as to activate set bonuses. Hence, the reasonable options for socketing with blue gems are the 4 slayer pieces. The socket bonus on the chest is 8 AP, the shoulders 6 AP, and the legs/gloves 4 AP. So we're clearly going to get the most mileage out of the blue gems by socketing them in the chest + shoulders to activate 14 AP of socket bonuses in addition to the metagem.

Regarding the hit cap: again, recall that this sheet is designed to tell you which items our good, and an item with a lot of hit on it *is* good regardless of how much hit is currently on your gear, so the sheet wants to reflect that. It just means you need to keep an eye on how much hit you've accumulated and not go overboard on it.

Great advice, thanks

Just found a minor bug in 0.7.3; I seem to have mistyped the stats of DFT at some point. If you're comparing this as a reasonable option, you should go to the Trinkets page and correct cell N12 to be 20 instead of 25. Fix will be in the next release, which will hopefully be out sometime this weekend.

I'm still using it because I have the -worst- luck with trinkets. I've been to goddamn Mech at least 60 times, and we've only had 1 DST drop so far. I'm exalted with KoT and only seen 1 hourglass drop (I was on my priest ..)

Yeah. So still using the DFT. (It placates all the hunters/feral druids that wanted one back when we were doing BWL and I let only warriors/rogues roll on it - i.e. "Are you still using any BWL gear? At least I'm getting a lot of use out of it!")

Doesn't surprise me, really - I mean, there are certainly better trinkets available now, but DFT still does have it's place. There are certainly people that have moved past it, but there's plenty of people with bad luck or who are still in Kara who may not have anything better. Long story short? It's in the sheet for a reason .

Yeah - I hate clicky trinkets too (I suck at using them) so realistically the value of all such trinkets goes way, way down.... one of the reasons I'm happy that Rom + DST is really the optimal choice for me. :P

Found another one - Liar's Tongue Gloves has 36 crit on the spreadsheet, but in actuality has 26 crit.

[Liar's Tongue Gloves]

Also, you have "Marshall's" [sic] Leather Bracers, General's Leather Belt, General's Leather Boots, with the stats of the "Marshal's" set (S1 Honor rewards) when I think you really want the [Veteran's Leather Belt], [Veteran's Leather Bracers], [Veteran's Leather Boots]

Also missing [Sergeant's Heavy Cloak] while I'm on an honor reward kick.

I am a rogue, I have a question on Weapon Skill and Hit Rating and Crit.

This seems to be a really gray area.

From a few posts i have read and blogs:

Vs a level 73 mob/boss without Weapon Skill or Precision.

The hit rating needed is 403 according to various sources.

If you add 10 Weapon Skill, then the Hit needed is 387.

A difference in 16 (or more than likely 15.77) which is 1% hit.
But also 10 weapon skill provides 1% Crit afaik.

I'm interested in getting the most damage i can possibly get in a raid, this has previously been to stack hit, crit and ap where possible.

A raid boss in most cases is just one small part of total raid damage, so i'm interested in maximising damage vs lvl 70,71,72 trash etc. How much hit should i be using, i can possibly reach 308 with precision and weapon skill, however vs most mobs, isnt this +hit going to waste? I am a great believer in equipment swapping, would it be worth swopping for example a +30ish hit rating item with a +ap/crit piece for fights vs lvl 72 trash. I feel the answer would be yes if my calculations are correct.

So i need to know what the +hit needed for: lvl71,72 mob.

I need to know what effects weapon skill has on these mobs, but the wowwiki posts on weapon skill arnt very clear as they contain a lot of potentially outdated pre-tbc info.

Do they scale in a linear fashion, e.g

White attacks vs opponents:
Lvl 70 Hit needed: 378.5
Lvl 71 Hit needed: 386.375
Lvl 72 Hit needed: 394.25
Lvl 73 Hit needed: 402.14

Above are just examples from some math i did and might be entirely incorrect, would just like to know more how it really works.

Thanks in advance.

I might suggest taking a look at [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion which has a bunch of info on the specifics of weapon skill, but here's the general idea:

If your weapon skill is simply the base 350, it takes a very large amount of hit to zero out your miss chance against level 73s; the base miss chance is something like 28%.

Assuming you have at least 355 weapon skill *or* the mobs your facing are at most level 72, the following formula will tell you how much total hit you need:

24% + (.5% per level of the mob over 70) - (.1% per point of weapon skill over 350)

So, for instance, if you have 2/2 WEx, your base weapon skill is 360. Thus, against, say, a level 71 mob, your base miss chance will be 24% + .5% - 1% = 23.5%. If you additionally have precision, this means that you will cap out on hit rating once you have enough for 18.5% hit from hit rating; this works out to be 18.5*205/13 = ~292 hit rating as the cap with 2/2 WEx and 5/5 precision vs level 71 mobs.

Similar calculations apply for other combinations of weapon skill and hit.

Oh, and Re: assorted gear corrections: again, all will be in the next patch. If you find any others let me know and I'll fix them too.

I was wondering the effectiveness of the Ashtounge Talisman of Lethality, vs Madness of the Betrayer in a raid setting.

The spreadsheet doesn't model the ashtounge trinket correctly considering its almost always up when using correct cycles.. most rogues seem to be choosing this over madness, but I was still wondering what others thought.

How exactly do you model Haste in the spreadsheet? I want to be able to put my finger on an actual Attack Power Value, or something of the sorts, so I can understand Haste just like any other stat while making a gear decision. It would seem to me like Haste would depend on a number of factors, thus making it hard to place an actual numerical value on it.