• Aldriana

I would assert that the Ashtongue trinket is modeled in excrutiating detail in this sheet. It's possible to squeeze a little bit extra out of it relative to the model here, but it's pretty darn good.

Madness of the Betrayer, I'd need to know the proc rate before I can include it. However, my suspicion is that it'll be slightly inferior, unless the proc rate is a lot higher than I would expect. If you'd like to get me proc rate data, I'll give you a better answer.

Similarly, proc rate data on the exalted hyjal ring would be helpful.

The only thing that's going to significantly warp the value of haste is interrupted fights, which, admittedly, are common. Spreadsheets, such as this one, tend to ignore this problem and assume sustained endless combat, which is admittedly inaccurate but not by as much as you might think.

So, basically, how haste rating works is: the sheet adds up all the sources of +haste you have, converts it to a %increase, and increases your attack speed by that much. Not much to it, really. I guess I'm not really sure what other ambiguities might exist, so if you have specific questions/issues feel free to raise them.

 

Karmon

I had a closer look at the new Gear sheet(0.7.3).

In the DamageCalcs sheet using MAX() for all columns is IMO wrong. You will end up getting the best value across ALL cycles.
I think you need to select a cycle and then compute the relativ AP for each stat.
I modified my sheet to that effect (below all cells are in DamageCalcs sheet)

Cell A10 :add =MATCH(MAX(B2:B7);B2:B7;0)
For all Cells B9:AW9 change to :=OFFSET(B2:B7;$A$10-1;0;1;1)
(Just add it to Cell B9 and drag it across the row. The colum references automatically update.)

It also has the nice sideeffekt that you can display the actual cycle used in 'Talents_Equipment' sheet:
=INDIRECT("DamageCalcs.A"&DamageCalcs.A10+1) (Open Office only; Excel needs slightly different syntax: change the Dots to Exclamationmark)

The formula for ruputure damage looks strange: I could not match it to the information
given at Rupture - WoWWiki, the Warcraft wiki

 

Druss

Hmm - well i have done calculation with boss mob defence on in which case i am pretty sure 750ish DPS unbuffed DPS is not too bad.

With defence off my sheet shows this for combat swords (saved DPS is the fist/dagger);

Total DPS 1045.61
Total DPS 1874.15 (buffed)

saved dps: 1041.47
saved dps: 1862.44 (buffed)

difference: 4.13
difference: 11.70 (buffed)

In a lower damage gear set (my pvp kit) it is:

Total DPS 925.70
Total DPS 1424.50

saved dps: 925.62
saved dps: 1421.20

difference: 0.08
difference: 3.03

So even less. I suspect therefore that as the gear set gets weaker the fist/dagger option becomes more favourable and there will be a point of inflexion in there somewhere.

So yeah the difference isn't that noticable but there clearly is a difference that means swords do a bit more damage - particularly at the higher end.

 

roq

Decease, if you check the damage calc sheet on Row 11 you can see how much the current value of that stats is worth vs Attack power. Since i am bored at work, ie not working, i entered your data into my sheet. I used your Armory to get the calculations.

For your max rotation
3.29 AP == 1 Haste Rating

I think i explained that correcly. If not, i am sure ald will correct me.

 

• Aldriana

The thing is, I would argue that you *want* the best value across all cycles, as some of these bonuses (2/5 T4 come to mind) may significantly alter which cycle is optimal for you. If, for instance, you're a dagger rogue and usually using 5sXr3s and then equip 2/5 T4, the benefit you gain is not that you simply can use a slightly larger rupture in your existing cycle; the advantage is that you get to shift to a totally different cycle, 5sXr.

Basically, your method on the first few columns, where the benefits applied are small, is usually not going to make a difference relative to max, as you're either going to get the same answer or something very very close. For the larger bonuses, however, using max captures the fact that some bonuses are significant enough that either a) they allow access to a cycle you previously could not sustain, or b) you adjust your cycle to make better use of them. Either way, the relevant piece of information is what the maximum amount of DPS that can be squeezed out of the bonus is, and for that I think using max rather than indirect makes sense.

 

Decease

Thanks Roq, Just woke up and It's nice to see someone did the work for me! ~_^

 

• Aldriana

I just noticed another bug; glove enchant recommendations don't seem to be working properly - I'm not quite sure why yet. When I figure it out I'll let you know, and/or post a new version.

 

Decease

I've also noticed that I'm unable to remove the Ring enchants, at least on Open Office.

 

• Aldriana

Yeah, for some reason OO doesn't like letting you select the empty enchant. Fortunately, there's an easy workaround - just select the relevant square and hit delete

 

LiteSabre

The gear sheet shows the WSC as slightly better than the Ashtongue trinket for me (>1 DPS difference) and I was wondering if it was supposed to be like that or if it's because I stacked armor ignore (476 passive armor ignore from ring+pants+gloves). But replacing those pieces with equivalent but non-armor ignoring pieces still showed the coil on top.

In short, I don't really want to believe that the two most powerful trinkets in the game are from Gruul and Void Reaver (assuming what you said about Madness being worse than the ashtongue trinket is true). :P

Now, the ashtongue trinket is fun, but at times it can get tedious to keep up (3s/5r rotation can keep it up nearly all the time with luck) especially when I'm tired or don't feel like giving it 100%. If the WSC is actually better, then it seems like there'd be very little reason to keep the talisman equipped, as managing the buff is kinda like a playing a mutilate rogue: fun at first, but it can get tiresome quickly.

edit: I also noticed that for ring enchants, the highest DPS combination is 1 striking and 1 stats instead of 2 of either. Is this working as intended or is it a bug?

 

• Aldriana

It's certainly possible if a bit surprising. I'd have to look at your gear/spec/etc. to be sure.

uh... sounds like a bug.

Tell you what, I'll PM you my email address; if you could send me the sheet filled in with your gear/spec I'll take a look.

 

LiteSabre

Sent it. After a second look, the alternate setup does put the talisman on top, but by a very small margin (again, less than 1 DPS).

 

Alexsiss

Ald i definitely have the same thing with the ashtongue trinket being rated 5th under WSC, Tsunami and RPV. It is soemthing with versions 0.7.x. Only thing i can come up with is that im under hit cap and as those 3 trinket have hit and ashtongue doesn't it is outweighing them. But using ashtongue on live and using tsunami on ptr it def doesn't feel like tsunami is ever close.

 

• Aldriana

Well, I looked it over, and I don't see anything obviously wrong with the WSC comparison; even with my gear (which is in the sheet when it's downloaded), they're within ~5 AP (or 1.5 DPS) of each other, and the fact that you have some armor penetration stacked helps WSC from their. Also, it appears that having mangle up increases the value of WSC relative to Ashtongue, to my mild surprise. So, between the two - apparently, yes, WSC is comperable or superior to Ashtongue for you.

Regarding the ring thing: it's a bug. Sheet isn't counting the number of rings enchanted with each enchant, it's simply checking whether it's in use at all. It's an easy fix, and I'll get it out this weekend along with the fixes for other bugs people have found (and, perhaps, a few new features, if I have time).

Well, it has been my perception that as gear improves, hit tends to increase in relative value (for instance, Surefooted passes +12 agi as a boot enchant at some point). So I think the fact that those have hit is certainly a factor.

Regarding Ashtongue in particular: seems like the sheet is estimating about 70% uptime for it. To me, this seems fairly reasonable - in ballpark figures, with a 3s5r type cycle, you expect to drop a proc every other cycle or so since the SnD only has a 60% chance to proc it, and there is perhaps a small gap after the SnD before you have 5 CPs for the rupture. So 70% is at least a plausible number to me. However, since I don't have the trinket (and probably won't for a darn long time, if ever), I can't really verify personally whether that's accurate or not; if you think the actual uptime is higher, I can adjust the model to reflect that (although I'd like to see some combat logs with actual uptime figures before doing so). However, if we assume that the 70% number is in the right ballpark, it does appear that the trinket is comperable if not inferior to other available options.

 

koaschten

Aldriana if you can direct me to a line of command line code ala "find 'you gain ...'" or a parser, i can run it over ~200mb of Black Temple, Mount Hyjal, SSC and TK combat logs i logged with autoCL. Should give you a really nice estimate on the uptime. I just dont feel like uploading those 200mb

Guess you at least need the enter combat, the gain and the fade message to make some conclusions on uptime.

another edit: someone should really consider writing a mod to do something like that... enter the gain and the fade message and just forget about the mod, check a few weeks later and have a really nice set of data.

 

strikeforce

Well something I have just found which I can't confirm from World of Raids is that haste changes are coming in for melee. The details are linked can anyone say whether this is a big change or a small one.

I know this will affect the spreadsheet since it is a definite nerf overall. Just thought I would give you feedback apart from that great work!!!

 

Rife

It is easy enough to test the changes for Abacus of Violent Odds, but could someone model the haste rating nerf in the sheet for Dragonspine Trophy and Thundering Skyfire Diamond?

Here are the ratings as a reference:

Live: 10.5 haste rating for 1% haste
PTR: 15.7 haste rating for 1% haste

 

Decease

I'd also like to see what kind've effect this has on Swiftstrike Shoulders, I was in the midst of Powerlevelling Leather working for it.

 

Rife

Currently, the haste % on Swiftstrike Shoulders is 3.6%.

After the patch, with the current changes, it will be 2.4%.

 

• Aldriana

So, long story short: this haste nerf seems to me to be spectacularly stupid.

Let's review:

Previously, Dragonspine Trophy was disproportionately good, and a couple of items that dropped in BT and Hyjal that had haste on them were among the better options for their slot; the ideal end-game gear included two items with haste rating on them (Shadow-walker's Cord and Band of Devastation).

Now, none of the haste rating items are optimal for their slot, and, in fact, most are inferior to vastly easier-to-get items...

...and Dragonspine Trophy is still way overpowered.

Doesn't seem to me that they really fixed the problem they were trying to, but what do I know.

Anyway, next update of the sheet will have the new haste in it, but until then, here are some ballpark figures to use in the meantime:

* Haste to gloves is no longer a viable enchant.
* Swiftstrike Shoulders are now the 2nd best shoulders in the game, clearly inferior to T6 but still ahead of everything else (by a fair margin).
* Crystalweave Cape no longer competes with epic cloaks.
* Swiftstrike Bracers are now comperable to Deadly Cuffs and thus clearly inferior to Insidious Bands
* Grips of Damnation are now comperable to Deathmantle Gloves, and vastly inferior to T6.
* Shadow-walker's Cord is now comperable to Don Alejandro's Money Belt and Belt of Deep Shadow, and hence inferior to Belt of One-Hundred Deaths
* Band of Devastation drops from the 2nd best ring to the 5th best ring, behind Stormrage Signet Ring, Band of Deceitful Intent, Ring of Lethality, and Band of the Ranger-General

On the whole, it appears that there's still some value to swiftstrike shoulders, but, barring bad luck, by the time you get the other haste items you will probably already have something else that is as good or better.

 

• Viper

I wouldn't go making too many changes just yet; there's been no confirmation yet via blue posters or patch notes that it's an intended change, and those haste conversion rates are the same as back in 2.0. Entirely possible that it's just some accidental change.

 

• Aldriana

It's entirely possible, but I think it somewhat unlikely as there have been rumors floating around for a while regarding a possible haste nerf, so I'm honestly not too surprised to see it.

I suppose it's possible that public outcry might make them change it from a general haste nerf to a targetted nerf on the two objectional haste effects (Dragonspine Trophy and Warglaives set bonus), but I'm not sure I'd even hold my breath about that.

 

• Aldriana

Writing a parser to see when buffs start and end is certainly pretty straightforward; what's a little harder is figuring out when combats start and end. I'll have to think about the best way to do such a thing. When I figure something out I'll let you know.

On an unrelated note: I think I'm going to take the Arena 1 armors out of the sheet; it's been long enough that I don't really expect too many people to be still using them, they're really not very good, and the armor lists for some slots is getting kind of long. So unless there are profound objections, they will not be in 0.7.4,

 

Dampfbrumsel

Well, to tell the truth, this haste change makes the shoulders entirely useless. You are not going to have access to your guilds Hearts of Darkness until your regular raiders are equipped with the gear for Mother Shahraz, which, mind the irony, drops the T6 shoulder tokens.

Sorry for the little rant. The change just annoys me so much.

 

Kytrarewn

And if they up the procrate on Warp-Spring and Tsunami by 100%, how would they compare (I've fucked around with them a bit on the PTR, since I don't have them on live. They never, ever proc).

Your spreadsheet has the warp-spring at 107 value, barely better than hourglass of the unraveller, and not as good as abacus of violent odds (though haste re-evaluation should change that).

Most, if not all of the value, seems to come from the latent stats, not from the proc itself.

Assuming that DST loses 1/3 of its value (possibly more, given the windfury change, and issues with haste-stacking), it'll be down to 285, which is about double that of even the second place trinket.

Including the whole haste-stacking thing, let's say a generic value of 220 for DST.

Still overpowered? Yes, but not out of the realm of buffing other trinkets to points that they might be halfway comparable (ie. 160-180 values on your sheet for warp-spring/tsunami with increased procrate, maybe 215 for Ashtongue if they add some latent stats along the lines of 30 hit and 45 AP).

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