• Aldriana

Next version of the spreadsheet is up, with item changes and the overhauled UI (many thanks to Darlal); however, socketing is currently broken so I've marked it beta to denote the fact that it's not fully functional. However, I wanted to get this out in circulation so as to solicit comments on the new layout and hear what comments people have on what they like about it and what they'd still like to see in the organization department.

I've linked it in the first post, but I'll also link it here: http://www.savefile.com/files/730785

 

Darlal

Socketing will be completely overhauled soon to allow for multiples of the same gems and socket bonuses.

 

Graecus

I like the simplicity of this spreadsheet. To be honest, I've always found the "sustained dps" model the other spreadsheet follows to be, well, hyper inflated. With my gear and max buffs I can attain in a raid environment, the spreadsheet would show numbers in the 1400 range, whereas I can possibly push 940-960 on Mag near the tail end of the encounter. I understand why the number gets so large, but it isn't something I would like to see, which is the reason you designed your sheet.

So I guess which is to be trusted? I feel your sheet, when looking just at base dps, falls more inline with what I am capable of in any given instance on any given boss that sits still for more than a minute. I like how in perfect situations (read: Gruul with minimal cave-ins) I've reached 900 dps and the sheet tells me I should be getting base 877 with my current gear, no buffs, and about 932 with correct trinkets and typical raid buffs and a few potions. I feel that's more accurate than the original DPS spreadsheet which shows 990 and 1220 dps, respectively.

I'm still skeptical, but am glad there is an option to test the original.

I would like to know why you chose the dagger build you did. I have always used the following:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=w0efooZ0eVbbEz0MMRtV

whereas you use something more inline with:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=i0gcoLZMIVbbEz0MMRtV

which I really don't expect to do more damage. Mostly based off my own experience, but also of course the original DPS spreadsheet. Is there numeric backing as to why yours will do more damage? You also seem to "hardcore" the original Assassination / Combat talents, whereas you leave the remaining to be changed. Could you provide an option to modify the talents a bit more?

So far, it looks solid. I'm hoping we get more heads to bang on this sheet and work out the kinks, if any, and provide a more realistic gear comparison sheet. Great work so far.

Precision in Paradise

 

• Aldriana

Well, my initial comment would be: the two builds you describe are both described fairly well by the sheet. Yours only differs from what the sheet supports in that it has 3/3 Ruthlessness instead of 2/3 - everything else you can enter in just fine. And while that certainly is going to make *some* difference in terms of sustained dps output, I don't think it's crippling to the sheet - the answers you get will still be close.

In terms of the relative merit of the two builds: with the gear I will be wearing as soon as 2.1 comes out, the build you propose is only marginally superior against the targets that murder affects, and clearly inferior against everything else. In particular, pulling a point out of Lethality to get the last point of Ruthlessness drops me by ~3 dps both buffed and unbuffed. So while you can argue the merits of dropping Lethality in favor of Murder, I think it is correct to keep Ruthlessness at 2/3 - in which case, you're back in the realm of what the sheet can do.

As to allowing more talents to be changed: the fundamental issue is one of cycle determination. The rogue dps spreadsheet computes cycles by simply trying all possible cycles and figuring out which one happens to be best; the problem is, this creates all manner of issues with circular references once you deal with armor penetration procs and the like. This sheet takes a different approach; it takes the lessons learned in that sheet about which sorts of cycles tend to be optimal, and computes directly what the optimal cycle is going to be.

The problem with this is: cycles can reasonably be broken down into families (i.e. 5s/5r/Xe, Xs/5r, etc.) and while it is straightforward to compute the optimal member of a given family, it's extremely hard to compare across families. Hence, the talent selections are constrained so as to keep all possible answers in the same family.

In the case of swords, for instance: the calculations are built around using Xs/5r as the main cycle. However, if your energy regeneration is too low, this will not be sustainable. Hence, the energy-affecting talents (Relentless Strikes, Imp SS, AR, and Combat Potency) are all on the list of required talents; if you don't have these, your energy generation might not be sufficient to sustain 5s/5r, at which point you need to drop down to 5s/5r/3s, which the sheet just simply cannot handle. The other talents on the "required" list are there for similar reasons - it's because if they were allowed to vary, you'd risk moving out of the range of cycles the sheet is designed to handle. Hence, I just hardcoded them to what I believed to be the most common values, and let everything else vary.

Now, as for daggers: I haven't done much work with the cycle model, so I can't tell you for certain which talents are required - I just coded up 5/5/3 with the combat daggers build I use as a rough cut. Eventually, however, I hope to have a dynamically adjusted family of attack rotations for daggers as I do for swords, at which point what's required may change. Although, in all honesty, Ruthlessness has a fairly profound effect on dagger rotations, so that one is unlikely to be available for change.

Long story short: I made as many options as I could changable. However, the structure of the sheet coerces certain restrictions on talent builds, so I am forces to restrict some as well.

 

Graecus

Well like I said, it works for me, or at least appears to by coming very close to my dps output. Whether I'm a bad rogue is to be seen, but I feel I squeeze a lot out of these toon.

Looks solid. I look forward to more additions (thought I've already begun adding colors and stupid stuff like that for my own).

Precision in Paradise

 

Anddacin

Hmm, just a couple of questions:

1. Is there a way to see the values or a ranking of other gear once I have my gear laid out? (Ie: I have helm1 selected, can I see if helms2-5 would be positive or negative upgrades?).

2. Is there a cell that shows expected dps?

3. Do the values listed in the UI represent anything like an AEP, DPS, or are they just arbitrary comparison numbers?

Thanks

 

• Aldriana

1) At the moment, the way to do this is to pull up the "armor" sheet and see which have higher scores and which have lower scores. We're working on UI improvements for this; we're currently a planning a "largest upgrades from instance X" table - i.e. a list of the largest upgrades available in Karazhan, or in Heroics, or in SSC - or whatever. In terms of differences within a particular slot - it would be straightforward to add a column to the armor sheet that would give the difference between a piece of equipment and your current gear - do people think this would be helpful?

2) Expected DPS is sort of buried in the sheet right now - if you look at the end of column B on the sword or dagger sheet (as appropriate), you will find a dps number. Since this was initially designed as a gear comparison tool rather than an explicit dps calculator, I didn't initially worry about making it particularly user-accessible. However, again, if it's a feature people think is helpful, it's not a hard feature to add to display that dps number in a more prominent location.

3) The offense values are in Effective AP. The defense values are in Effective Stamina. The total column is a weighted sum of the two (speficially, offense + .6 * defense).

And as a general update on progress: we're almost ready to release 0.4; we've been held up by some compatability issues between Excel and OpenOffice, but are getting close to a completed revision, which will include, among other things, the improved UI, full socketing support, the new test realm items, and an updated of Warp Spring Coil to reflect the recent change to it on test.

 

• astearns

On (1), my dream UI would add the current delta in ranking to the field for the name of the item. In the popup, you'd see:

Cowl of Defiance (+87.7)
Helm of the Claw (0.0)
Wastewalker Helm (-7.5)

and/or the cell ranges for the gear slots would either automatically sort based on the current totals or there would be a button to push to sort them (this way the popup would always show the upgrades above your current gear).

 

Anddacin

For #3, is there a user-editable cell for the weighting of defense? (Essentially going for a max dps feel).

 

• Aldriana

If you want to go max dps, you can just look at straight offense. That said, changing the weighting is potentially a valuable feature; it doesn't exist right now, but it's on the list to be added somewhere down the line.

 

Cyn

i'd like to suggest that the gladiator gear gets added, aswell as "Sun-Gilded Shouldercaps", they are better shoulders than some of the others listed in the spread sheet

 

• tsigo

This looks promising. I like that the gear selection is limited to the higher-end items and I don't have to go through a bunch of garbage I'd never wear.

I do notice it's missing a few gems (Bright Living Ruby, Bold Ornate Ruby, Jagged Talasite, notably). Is that just part of 0.3's socketing being non-functional? I'd also prefer that the gems show the stats rather than, or in addition to, the names. I always get the names mixed up

Small UI suggestion. The drop-down arrow on each piece of gear partially covers the rating next to it. If you're just going through each piece seeing how it changes the rating, it's a minor annoyance to click off the selection cell. Making the value cell a bit wider is probably enough of a fix.

 

• Aldriana

Bright Living Ruby was put in but misnamed, because I'm dumb. Will be fixed in next release.

PvP gems I didn't put in because... I don't PvP, so I didn't think of it. Again, I'll add it.

General theory to gear selection is to take the best thing that can be gotten out of 5 mans, and anything better - theory being that any serious raider should be at that gear level. By that logic, I suppose Sun Gilded Shouldercaps - and maybe Warp Splinter's Thorn, and a few others - should work their way in. If you see any other notable omissions, let me know and I'll add them.

 

• tsigo

Sethekk Feather-Darts, sadly still one of the best Thrown weapons =/

 

• Aldriana

They score significantly below Felsteel Whisper Knives, which is why they weren't included.

 

Tosa

Would Braided Eternium Chain be worth adding?

 

• Aldriana

Version 0.4: http://www.savefile.com/files/741152

Changelog:
Overhauled UI
New test realm items added/updated
Warp Spring Coil updated for new proc rate
Fixed bug that was sometimes causing a miscomputation of weapon speed.

Many thanks to Darlal for the UI improvements.

Known Bugs:
*Some features have compatability problems with OpenOffice
*Optimal enchant calculation gets confused by multiple enchants of the same name (i.e. Mongoose on OH vs Mongoose on MH; Assault to Bracers vs Assault to Gloves, etc.)

 

Darlal

As a note, the fix I will most likely be going with for the enchants is to enforce unique names. Mongoose will become Mongoose (MH) and Mongoose (OH).

FYI, there is also a very slight calculation error in the total values for weapons and armor (1-3 points, max). These will all be fixed in the next release.

Please keep your wish list coming and I'll keep adding features (within reason). Soon to come: personalized balances between offense and defensive stats and zone information/filters.

 

• Aldriana

In the same spirit:

Coming from the formula side of things within the next couple of releases:
*A better model of Windfury
*Deathmantle 4/5 set bonus
*Ability to mix MH and OH weapon types.
*Dynamically adjusted dagger cycle
*Updates to new items/stats as more information about them is learned.

We're also looking into a way to warn people if they are above the hit cap with a given set of gear.

 

LiteSabre

So Warp-Spring Coil is STILL sub-par compared to even the poison vial? *sadface*

 

• Aldriana

Assuming I have the proc rate on the Vial correct, and you need the hit... yes.

 

Anddacin

Would there be a way to import a database of items from something like thott or another spreadsheet to fill out the gear selections more rather than doing it by hand?

 

• Aldriana

An answer in two parts:

1) Possibly, although I personally have no idea how to do so.
2) And if you did manage to do it, you'd need to be careful about it; the itemization is restricted in part to keep the players stats within a fairly narrow range, to simplify the calculations. There is a risk of the cycle computation etc. breaking if your gear is too odd. This is mostly a problem with OH speed, but if your hit chance gets too low you could also run into trouble.

 

Graecus

Great stuff, I'm rather glad to see where my gear is sitting amongst other selections. I was blown away when I saw the new interface of this sheet, looks fantastic.

Is there a way to clear gems when you select a helm that has no gems? I found myself switching to my Cowl of Defiance and forgot to remove the meta/gem to show the correct estimated dps for daggers.

Also, are all the 2.1 changes implemented?

Precision in Paradise

 

• Aldriana

All the 2.1 stats are in, although some of them are estimated. The only 2.1 change I haven't fully addressed is the fact that sword spec is a yellow attack now; I changed the sheet to reflect that it no longer resets the swing timer, but I haven't heard any confirmation of which miss rate it uses or whether it can glance; if that has changed, it's not implemented.

There are some estimates in the sheet as well, that I'd like to pin down better. In terms of specific mechanics in need of testing:

Glancing Blow Rate
Glancing Blow Severity
Sword Spec - which miss rate does it use? can it glance?
Effect of weapon skill
TSD Proc Rate
R+J trinket proc rate
Dragonspine proc rate
Deathmantle 4/5 proc rate
Typical armor for sundered raid bosses

Some of these have received discussion on various threads, but I'm not aware of a definitive answer having been reached for any of them.