As this speadsheet's aim to show improvements is of great help to properly work on the equipment of a raiding rogue, it would be great to make it suitable for pre-kara/gruul-rogues. If possible, please include some lvl70-blues like Hauberk of Karabor, Tunic of Assassination or Stealthers Helm of Second Sight etc. in one of the future versions as this is what most rogues start of with when they start raiding with lvl70. It simply would broaden the target group of the spreadsheet and become more useful for "casual raiding guilds" which are just struggeling to get their members ready for the more requesting raids.
As this speadsheet's aim to show improvements is of great help to properly work on the equipment of a raiding rogue, it would be great to make it suitable for pre-kara/gruul-rogues. If possible, please include some lvl70-blues like Hauberk of Karabor, Tunic of Assassination or Stealthers Helm of Second Sight etc. in one of the future versions as this is what most rogues start of with when they start raiding with lvl70. It simply would broaden the target group of the spreadsheet and become more useful for "casual raiding guilds" which are just struggeling to get their members ready for the more requesting raids.
As you can read on the introduction of this spreadsheet, the spreadsheet is aimed towards rogues above that level. For a "broader" spreadsheet that might cover all your needs you should check the Rogue DPS one [Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet
edit:Forgot to mention that you can add your own gear by editing the pertinent sheet
All calculations are based off of your current stats. Hence, when you change gear, the value of stats changes. As such, items can change in relative value by a few AP in either direction. Hence, differences of less than 5 AP should be taken with a grain of salt.
I think everyone understands why this is happening. The point he was trying to make is this:
Instead of basing the calculations on your current stats, base them on your current stats minus the stats of the item in that slot.
That way, when comparing two gloves, their relative value will only change if your gear changes in a different slot, because the calculations for both gloves will be based off the same stats.
This would probably be quite a bit of work though because you would have to calculate stat values for each slot seperately.
Also it's probably not even worth fixing anyway because in every case this happens the difference is less than 1 dps and you shouldn't base your gear choices on that
As this speadsheet's aim to show improvements is of great help to properly work on the equipment of a raiding rogue, it would be great to make it suitable for pre-kara/gruul-rogues. If possible, please include some lvl70-blues like Hauberk of Karabor, Tunic of Assassination or Stealthers Helm of Second Sight etc. in one of the future versions as this is what most rogues start of with when they start raiding with lvl70. It simply would broaden the target group of the spreadsheet and become more useful for "casual raiding guilds" which are just struggeling to get their members ready for the more requesting raids.
On the whole, I would argue that there's adequate coverage for pre/early Kara rogues. I admit that there are a few slots where there is a shortage of options (chest, waist, and rings come to mind), and I will consider adding stuff to those slots. With regards to Stealther's Helm: if you're starting Karazhan, you have Helm of the Claw, which is strictly better, so I fail to see much point in wearing something that no one should be using for even the beginning of Kara.
In a larger sense, the issue is that the assumptions that make a sheet like this possible don't even really become valid until you get the longer fights of 25 mans; hence, the sheet isn't particularly accurate for Karazhan, much less 5-mans and heroics. Thus, in the interest of usability, I've tried to restrict gear to stuff that someone starting 25-man raiding might reasonably be wearing, which *should* be mostly Kara-level gear with a sprinkling of blies not replaced yet.
To be perfectly honest, I've actually thought about cutting down the gear lists further, as there are some items that I doubt see much use by anyone, and some of the lists for various slots are getting annoyingly long. For instance, the following items strike me as unlikely to be used by any soon-to-be-raiding rogue, due to being significantly inferior to an easier-to-get item:
Gladiator's Helm
Cobrascale Hood
Pendant of Triumph
Gladiator's Leather Spaulders
Sun-Gilded Shouldercaps
Gladiator's Leather Gloves
Gloves of the Unbound
Gladiator's Leather Legguards
Shadowstep Striders
Legionkiller
Barring major objections, I will probably remove these in some future revision.
Also note that you can always add your own gear to the sheet if you really want to. It's not the easiest thing in the world to do, but it can be done. I just think that most of what's not in here is excluded for good reason.
Originally Posted by Tyran
I think everyone understands why this is happening. The point he was trying to make is this:
Instead of basing the calculations on your current stats, base them on your current stats minus the stats of the item in that slot.
That way, when comparing two gloves, their relative value will only change if your gear changes in a different slot, because the calculations for both gloves will be based off the same stats.
This would probably be quite a bit of work though because you would have to calculate stat values for each slot seperately.
Also it's probably not even worth fixing anyway because in every case this happens the difference is less than 1 dps and you shouldn't base your gear choices on that
It's an interesting idea, to be sure, but it's not really possible with the current organization of the sheet. To get that working would require either A) using an unholy abomination of macros, like the Rogue DPS sheet (which I'd prefer to avoid), B) rewriting the sheet with about 100 extra calculation pages (which has all sorts of bad consequences, not the least of which is the effort involves in writing 100 calculation pages), or C) writing this all in a real programming language (which I won't say will never happen, but don't expect it anytime soon.
Also, as you note, differences of less than 1 DPS aren't particularly concerning, so fixing it is pretty far down on my priority list.
Looking at your newest version of the sheet, the Damage Calc Sheet is suggestiing i run the 1/3.44 (3 or 4)r Cycle as a dagger rogue. I haven't tried it yet, but is this even possible or, damn i am at a lost for words, i guess realistic or practical would be a better word?
For the last few days this has really been bothering me because i assumed it was suggesting that i run 1s/5r but didn't take the time to actually check the 1sXr sheet. I have been running 5s/4r of late, but if this can actually hold up, it would be REALLY nice short cycle to use. Or should i take this calculation with a grain of salt. Has any Dagger rogue (if any of you still exist) get a similar cycle and try this out?
Didn't check my armory, but just in case MH should be Malchzeen and Trinket should be Hourglass.
Oh and one Minor UI suggestion. Could you Freeze Frame the Damage calc sheets the same way you do the Armors?
Looking at your newest version of the sheet, the Damage Calc Sheet is suggestiing i run the 1/3.44 (3 or 4)r Cycle as a dagger rogue. I haven't tried it yet, but is this even possible or, damn i am at a lost for words, i guess realistic or practical would be a better word?
I typed in your gear from the Armory, although it won't let me load your spec right now. Anyway, loading up the cookie-cutter 15/41/5 daggers spec, I get a recommendation of 1s/3.01r. Looking over the calculation pages - I don't see any major problems, myself. It does look like that cycle should be sustainable.
For the last few days this has really been bothering me because i assumed it was suggesting that i run 1s/5r but didn't take the time to actually check the 1sXr sheet. I have been running 5s/4r of late, but if this can actually hold up, it would be REALLY nice short cycle to use. Or should i take this calculation with a grain of salt. Has any Dagger rogue (if any of you still exist) get a similar cycle and try this out?
I actually got the idea to include the 1s/Xr cycles because a rogue in another thread had commented that he had good luck with a 3s/3r cycle. So people have at least played with such things. The general theory is that the DPS of rupture actually holds pretty steady from 3 to 5 points; what you mostly lose is duration. A 3 point rupture lasts for 12 seconds while a 5 point rupture lasts for 16, but the damage over that duration is only 11 DPS lower. As such, if compressing the cycle heavily allows you to get significantly higher uptime, it's potentially a better cycle than a cycle with a longer rupture.
In fact, thinking about it a bit more, with daggers, longer SnDs don't actually allow you to increase the rupture size very much. Consider: increasing the SnD by one point gives you an extra 4.35 seconds of uptime. Typical energy regen with combat potency is about 13 energy per second; hence, you generate roughly 56.55 energy. The extra backstab to get that combo point costs 55 energy (60 minus 5 for relentless strikes). So increasing SnD size by 1 buys you less than two energy to go towards a rupture.
We see this in practice on the calc sheet; with your gear and the spec I have plugged in, the 1sXr cycle recommendation is 1s3.01r. The best 5s/Xr cycle it can come up with is 1s3.05r. So doubling your cycle length from 17.4 to 34.8 seconds buys you, um, basically nothing in terms of the rupture. It's not hard to see why the shorter cycle is potentially better.
Oh and one Minor UI suggestion. Could you Freeze Frame the Damage calc sheets the same way you do the Armors?
If I knew how, I most certainly would. Darlal did the armor page (and old calc sheets) - I have no idea how to do it myself. I'll look into it, though.
I feel dumb asking this, but have been unable to find the cycle recommendations on this spreadsheet. I noticed on the first page it says you'd like to add them to the front page, where are they now? :-p I scanned for a post about this but was unable to find one.
I feel dumb asking this, but have been unable to find the cycle recommendations on this spreadsheet. I noticed on the first page it says you'd like to add them to the front page, where are they now? :-p I scanned for a post about this but was unable to find one.
Yeah i discovered the 3/3 cycle in the past when i was playing with Kalman's version in the other spread sheet. But as the Sheets got updated, the cycle didn't seem to hold. I was wondering if I was doing something wrong. I never really saw anyone ever say anything about it and the few times I mentioned it, people said that anything below a 5 point Rupture wasn't worth it. I never really sat down and did the math by hand so i just went with what i found. Again, thanks for the break down.
If I knew how, I most certainly would. Darlal did the armor page (and old calc sheets) - I have no idea how to do it myself. I'll look into it, though.
I am on a Mac at work, but pretty sure this holds up in windows.
Go to Window-> Split
From there Drag the bars into the required position.
Then go Windows -> Freeze Panes.
Ald, is there any way to turn off ring enchants in the spreadsheet? I searched the thread for "ring enchant" and couldn't seem to find anything about this issue.
It's mentioned briefly in posts 433/434. Basically, selecting an empty enchant doesn't work for reasons that aren't quite clear to me, so the workaround is to just hit "delete" on the square in question. I have an idea for a better way of doing this, which I will include in the next version.
I'm pretty sure I understand that explanation aldriana...my problem is that I have no cycle pages at all from what I can see. The only tabs I can see are for talents_equipment, buffs, set bonus values, advanced settings. To the left of talents_equipment there is a 1-18 with some arrows..but clicking the arrows does nothing. talents equipment is showing as page 1 and buffs is showing as page 3..but there is no page 2. I feel like I'm missing something obvious here.
Last edited by Mojofabulous : 08/24/07 at 8:51 PM.
I am on a Mac at work, but pretty sure this holds up in windows.
Go to Window-> Split
From there Drag the bars into the required position.
Then go Windows -> Freeze Panes.
The Split isn't necessary.
Select the cell just below the row you want to freeze. To also freeze a column, select the cell to the right of that column. So to freeze the first row with the column descriptions, and the first column with the cycles, select cell B2, go to Window > Freeze Panes.
Thanks to all the people who have sent info about freezing panes. I'll throw that in the next revision.
Speaking of which: I have a decent-sized wish list of UI improvements that I would like to make at some point, not all of which I know how to do. As such, if there are any of you who are pretty good with Excel/OO and would like to help with the UI aspects of the sheet, let me know.
In other news, thanks to some nice testing by Uhohzombies in the Mechanics Testing thread, we now have the proc rate for Madness of the Betrayer - it appears to be a 1 PPM proc (shockingly enough, given that everything else is). So I'll be adding that to the next version as well; as a an estimate in the meantime, it does appear to be slightly superior to both Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality and Warp Spring Coil for a sword rogue.
There's a bug with the comptuation of Optimal Hit, see posts 471 through 475. It's to be fixed in the next revision; in the mean time, that number is useless as it's not adding up hit from gems in the optimal column.
As to the specific gem recommendations in the optimal column: the only change I can think of would be the haste nerf, which would lower the relative value of hit somewhat for people wearing haste gear. Other than that, the calc sheets are more or less unchanged since 0.7.
How do the damage calc sheets work? What exactly am I looking at? If you explained it elsewhere could you direct me to it. Been glancing through the posts and havent come accross it yet.
Much appreciated.
Also, what is 1s/Xr telling me? 1 Snd/random number of rupture cycle?
How do the damage calc sheets work? What exactly am I looking at? If you explained it elsewhere could you direct me to it. Been glancing through the posts and havent come accross it yet.
Much appreciated.
Also, what is 1s/Xr telling me? 1 Snd/random number of rupture cycle?
1s/5r would be 1point SnD/5point Rupture correct?
Post 532 on the very page where you posted. At least read the last page of posts before you add one.
08/24/07, 9:04 AM
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