I've been following this spreadsheet for a long time, but now that we're moving deeper into T5 content, I'm a bit confused by the itemization of rogue gear.
The spreadsheet seems to be telling me that I still want to be stacking +hit, and that I may be losing dps by replacing T4 with T5 gear because T5 (and T6) gear hass much less +hit. Other rogues in my guild point to the armory for rogues in guilds that have downed Illidan, and say, look, they only have 180 +hit or so, you're a dweeb for stacking +hit to 308.
I *think* that those rogues have less hit simply because the T5 and T6 gear is itemized that way, not because they've made an intelligent choice to favor other stats. Is that right? And if so, can anyone explain *why* the T5 and T6 gear would be itemized with less +hit than T4?
Do I really believe the spreadsheet, which is telling me that a point of +hit is still 1.4 AEP buffed? That seems ridiculously high.
*edit* I just realized I posted this in the wrong spreadsheet thread, I'm using the dps spreadsheet not this one. Since a new one was just posted here, I'll download it and see what it tells me.
*edit 2* different spreadsheet, same story - it says I should regem with +8 hit until I max it.
Hit really is that good... for the moment. When and if they nerf Dragonspine Trophy, it's value will drop somewhat. It will still be good, but probably not quite as over-the-top good.
As for why T5 and T6 have less hit; well, the real reason is because Blizzard chose to itemize it that way. But I personally consider that to be a profound benefit of those items.
This spreadsheet (and the other) both model sustained, endless combat, which, while it does exist on some bosses, there are a lot where it doesn't. And on those fights where you *don't* have long periods of sustained DPS, the relative value of hit drops. As such, when you can get an item with comperable sustained DPS capability and less hit, I consider that to be an upgrade.
That, plus the fact that, last I checked, the slot-for-slot optimal gear for an end BT rogue is well over the hit cap anyway (329 hit rating, by my count), makes me actually glad that there's not an overabundance of hit on all T5/6 pieces.
Now, when you look at Illidan killing rogues with only 180 hit - that's just stupidity, in my opinion. It's hard not to be over 250 or so if you're equipping anywhere near to optimal. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: not all rogues in top guilds actually know what they're doing.
That said, 1.4 AEP sounds high to me. For endgame optimal gear, I make it 1 agi = 1.23 hit, from the damage side of things anyway. When you factor in the mitigation from agi, it's even less.
Sheet 'Talents_Equiped':
Conditional Formatting is wrong for Cell B71
Conditional Formattion for Cell B72 looks ok but needed an explicit refresh to work for me
Cell I71 is wrong
Cell I72 is empty; should be similar to e.g. I66
Sheet 'Armor'
Gem Total Ranged (W174:Y174)are wrong; the column in VLOOKUP should be 28,29,30
Sure that they changed [Serpentshrine Shuriken] from 12sta, 20crit, 11hit to 14sta 20crit 12 hit?
Damn I need that 11 hit to adjust my hitrating for tests ....
Sheet 'Talents_Equiped':
Conditional Formatting is wrong for Cell B71
Conditional Formattion for Cell B72 looks ok but needed an explicit refresh to work for me
Cell I71 is wrong
Cell I72 is empty; should be similar to e.g. I66
Sheet 'Armor'
Gem Total Ranged (W174:Y174)are wrong; the column in VLOOKUP should be 28,29,30
Good catches. I'll fix them in the next release.
For those of you who didn't quite follow all that, in laymen's terms: ranged weapon socketing is a bit borked right now.
Sure that they changed [Serpentshrine Shuriken] from 12sta, 20crit, 11hit to 14sta 20crit 12 hit?
Damn I need that 11 hit to adjust my hitrating for tests ....
Worldofraids posted that item update yesterday, so, yeah. pretty sure.
For 11 hit on ranged, I might recommend grabbing a Veteran's Musket/Marksman's Bow.
I dunno, the endgame gear I've got in mind (excluding the warglaives) gives me 283 hit with the surefooted enchant, although that may change one the +12 hit JC-only gem and the Rigid Lionseye are implemented. I'm fairly sure the pattern for Rigid Lionseye doesn't drop yet.
Is it possible for the rigid lionseye to be removed for now? It's very annoying having it be the optimal gem when it isn't attainable in the game currently.
Now, when you look at Illidan killing rogues with only 180 hit - that's just stupidity, in my opinion. It's hard not to be over 250 or so if you're equipping anywhere near to optimal. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: not all rogues in top guilds actually know what they're doing.
It is often not easy to acquire an optimal gear set. Guilds that are killing Illidan already have been moving through BT very quickly, so that the choice of items can be quite limited. You can only roll on something that drops, and then you have to share it with the other rogues and dps. Personally, I have watched in bemusement as my hit has rating has steadily declined, despite picking up what I know to be significant upgrades.
Also, consider that many of the BT and Hyjal drops are quite high in stamina. While item evaluations sometimes only rate raw dps, stamina should not be neglected entirely. Adding in a small weight for stamina can give a significant boost to what might otherwise be lacklustre drops. There are several fights where I have been tempted to swap in high stamina pieces (maybe that's just my healers ).
Lastly, the value of hit rating will vary depending what spreadsheet you use, and what buffs you have access to. With patch 2.2 I will be down to a mere 1.14 hit rating per agility.
Don't forget that many of them have items like [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] (25 skill rating) and [Fang of Vashj] (21 skill rating) which drastically improves your chance to hit a high level mob/boss.
According to this gear spreadsheet, a sword specced rogue with Talon/MGQB and comparable gear to mace spec with Dragnstrike/MGShiv will put out 40 more dps on average.
Is the extra attack from sword spec that much of a boost?
Can someone please explain the calculations for sword spec and the value of the "extra" attack?
According to this gear spreadsheet, a sword specced rogue with Talon/MGQB and comparable gear to mace spec with Dragnstrike/MGShiv will put out 40 more dps on average.
Is the extra attack from sword spec that much of a boost?
Can someone please explain the calculations for sword spec and the value of the "extra" attack?
Thank you.
JC
Yes, it is that much of a boost.
On a recent Morogrim fight, which for rogues, aside from getting graved once, is about as close as you can get to the sustained dps that the sheets model, I had 958 swings, 79 missed/dodged/parried (8.2%), 55 sword spec, and 54 windfury procs. The fight lasted 587 seconds, and I was graved once which cost 24 seconds. My average mainhand hit was 723. Assuming 8.2% of the sword spec swings missed, that's 36511 damage, or 64.9 damage per second out of my total of 1232.
I was using Hope Ender. Since that particular fight got me my Talon, it'll be more now =)
I suppose you silly non-leatherworkers didn't need to powerlevel HH rep to get the Nethercobra pattern, did you...
OTOH: the 0.7.6 sheet suggest an 1s3.5r cycle with daggers, 2pc netherblade and at least 2 points in ruthlessness.
I can't see how to sustain that.
Older version suggest a 5s4r cycle instead.
There's a discussion of the 1sXr dagger cycles in post 532; the bottom line is that if you can sustain 5s4r, you can easily sustain 1s3r, and the massively higher rupture uptime should buy you a decent amount of damage.
Originally Posted by LiteSabre
I dunno, the endgame gear I've got in mind (excluding the warglaives) gives me 283 hit with the surefooted enchant, although that may change one the +12 hit JC-only gem and the Rigid Lionseye are implemented. I'm fairly sure the pattern for Rigid Lionseye doesn't drop yet.
Rigid Lionseye isn't implemented? Bah! Wowhead lied to me!
Okay, yeah, that changes things. I come up with 284 hit for optimal endgame gear, then. With the new JC gems from next patch, it'd be 286. When/if they implement Rigid Lionseye, it'll shoot up to the aforementioned number.
Originally Posted by Elvenstein
Is it possible for the rigid lionseye to be removed for now? It's very annoying having it be the optimal gem when it isn't attainable in the game currently.
Yeah, I'll take it out of the recommendations next patch. If you want to fix it yourself: got to the Gems sheet, and change cell F26 to 0.
Originally Posted by Lukon
It is often not easy to acquire an optimal gear set. Guilds that are killing Illidan already have been moving through BT very quickly, so that the choice of items can be quite limited. You can only roll on something that drops, and then you have to share it with the other rogues and dps. Personally, I have watched in bemusement as my hit has rating has steadily declined, despite picking up what I know to be significant upgrades.
Sure. I'm fairly certain no one has the optimal gearset yet, if for no other reason than because it takes no fewer than 5 Illidan drops, which is going to be hard to come by.
However, the point remains: A typical rogue in T4/5 level gear tends to be up around 300 hit. Endgame optimal is still up around 300 hit. So it's hard for me to imagine an intermediate time at which you get as low as 180 hit. I know there's a tendency for hit to drop somewhat - indeed, I hope so, as if I were wearing the slot-for-slot best gear I have right now I'd be a fair amount over the hit cap. But I think we're talking more "dropping to down around 250", which still isn't bad. In fact, as I've discussed a number of times, it's arguably good to have your hit a bit lower.
Also, consider that many of the BT and Hyjal drops are quite high in stamina. While item evaluations sometimes only rate raw dps, stamina should not be neglected entirely. Adding in a small weight for stamina can give a significant boost to what might otherwise be lacklustre drops. There are several fights where I have been tempted to swap in high stamina pieces (maybe that's just my healers ).
Yup. There's a reason I give the "weighted total" option. Stamina isn't massively important to rogues, but there does tend to be some minimum amount you need to have.
Lastly, the value of hit rating will vary depending what spreadsheet you use, and what buffs you have access to. With patch 2.2 I will be down to a mere 1.14 hit rating per agility.
I would argue that the value of hit depends on gear and buffs, but not which spreadsheet you use. How accurately the various spreadsheets estimate the conversion will vary, but there is a "right" answer that's spreadsheet invariant.
I'm not getting the socket bonus on midnight chestguard or Vambraces of Ending to change to yes. I have tried switching to other gems that will work, but it does not give the socket bonus to me.
Just 2 things I thought you could look into when you get the chance.
I'm not getting the socket bonus on midnight chestguard or Vambraces of Ending to change to yes. I have tried switching to other gems that will work, but it does not give the socket bonus to me.
Just 2 things I thought you could look into when you get the chance.
I would suggest reading the "Frequently Asked Questions" section of the first post in this thread.
In 0.7.6 I still get Delicate Ruby as the recommended gem for almost all slots with only 206 hit rating, I do have +56 dagger skill rating.
So do I.
Interestingly enough, when I change my meta from the relentless earthstorm) 12 agi/3% crit damage) to thundering skyfire (haste proc), then the recommendation changes to Rigid Dawnstone. Is it possible that they are so close that the extra crit damage tips the balance so 1 hit is less than 1 AEP?
OTOH: the 0.7.6 sheet suggest an 1s3.5r cycle with daggers, 2pc netherblade and at least 2 points in ruthlessness.
I can't see how to sustain that.
Older version suggest a 5s4r cycle instead.
Yes it can be done and it works well. I finally got to use it on tuesday and I liked it alot. Just one note, don't always go with a 3 point Rupture, there are alot of times you can drop 4 point, it just invovles a little managmenet and paying attention to your procs. Also use AR after SND and build to a 5 point rupture.
Ald, the Race, and Weighted Total boxes seemed to be borked and we are all forced to be Night Elves.
I was actually wondering about the race box. I'm a troll, and every time I get a new sheet and change the race my DPS goes down. I would like to think that berserking is at least on par with the couple points of str or agil that NE's have over trolls.
I didn't poke around, but I just guessed that berserking wasn't modeled, since its effectiveness depends on your current health %, and only one race can use it. It's probably the same for orc blood fury.
I'm not going to ask that berserking and blood fury be modeled though, since they are unlikely to change anyone's gearing decisions.
The fundamental problem with berserking/blood fury is that, as an NE, I have absolutely no idea how these work, how to use them effectively, etc. As such, I can't really model them. So, at the moment, the only racial abilities that are modeled are base stats and passive racial bonuses (NE dodge chance, Hu Sword/Mace skill, etc.). I'm not going to say I will never implement the others, but it's certainly not high on my priority list.
Besides, we all know NE has the best racial ability of any race - flippy jump. You know you're jealous .
On the troll racial point, last time i tried to figure it out it was like
- 100 - 61% hp you gain 10% attack speed
- 60 - 31% hp you gain 20% attack speed
- 30 - 1% hp you gain 30% attack speed
All that on a 3 minute cooldown for 10 seconds of effect at a cost of 10 energy.
It was overpowered on Patchwork, jump into the green liquid, drop down to 29% hp and BAMMM dps
I can't change it. It works like a Javascript error when someone is trying to pop open a DHTML menu and nothing happens. It isn't a big deal honestly, I just mentioned it just in case others were having the problem. Regardless It really doesn't change much in the long run, i know Trolls Dominate Night Elves anyways.
Koaschten, it also works well on VR after a ground pound .
08/30/07, 3:16 AM
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