Neshalin

The entire Mutilate sequence gets dodged (proof at 20:25'35.234). My hit rating isn't low enough to see misses on specials, but I presume it's the same.

You get 80% energy back, just like Backstab.

With Ruthlessness and only one crit Mutilate, you can get 4 combo points a significant amount of the time. This complicates finding a cycle the most. I think intelligent finisher selection is indeed the best option, following these priorities:
- Slice and Dice whenever it's down, save up energy if it runs out in a couple seconds;
- Rupture whenever it's down, save up energy if it runs out in a couple seconds;
- Envenom if you have enough Deadly Poison stacked to get the full benefit, Eviscerate otherwise.

You'll want to wait for energy to get back-to-back Ruptures and to fit two Mutilates in the Find Weakness uptime (10 seconds, so only 100 energy regen). One generally only gets to use Envenom/Eviscerate after a Ruthlessness proc + crit Mutilate. Depending on gear it might be a better idea to just Mutilate a second time instead of dumping combo points in those finishers. I have two pieces T4 and two pieces T5, so I try to stick to 4-5s,4-5r,(4e),4-5r as much as possible. It might be worth calculating a shorter cycle 1-3s,4-5r.

I've been working on a Javascript simulator to get an idea of what Mutilate is capable of. It takes your raw stats, allows buff and talent selection and some basic options like whether to keep up Find Weakness, whether the mob is poison immune, and the like. I'm looking into adding at least a basic Armory import for raw stats and maybe implement some trinkets before calling the simulator fit for consumption. Let me know if you'd like a look at it.

 

Grunge

I doubt one should EVER use envenom. Sure it's nice to see big numbers but with Deadly only on OH it will hardly refresh itself fast enough. Maybe if you use 1.4-1.5 speed OH but in my experience even that isn't fast enough.

As for viable cycles...it's pretty much 4+cp finishers. Although it might be possible that 3r is worth using (Ruthlessness+non-crit Mutilate or Crit Mutilate->Rupture.).

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

Mojofabulous

I raided as 41/20 mutilate until the 2.1 patch, then switched swords (because mutilate was just clearly far inferior at that point).

4combo point rule is a good one. Keep SnD up always, envenom when at 4-5 combo points and 5 deadly stacks AND you have a enhance shaman to steal stormstrike from and preferably 2piece t5(massive huge 4800+ envenoms possible). Rupture when you dont have max stacks of deadly. The occasion is rare when you dont need to snd or rupture and can't envenom..but if it does happen, evic might be applicable but I never really tried to figure out if that's efficient or not. I did that with a 1.6 speed offhand. Find weakness is super important, if I needed to do a 3point to keep it up I'd try to make it be a SnD rather than a rupture/envenom.

I have absolutely zero mathematical evidence to support the above, just a lot of raid practice and testing. The above maximized what I was able to do.

 

Neshalin

The effective damage of Envenom is the amount you see flashing by on your screen, minus the opportunity cost of having to refresh Deadly Poison. In a formula:

Envenom = Vile Poisons * Rank * (180 + 0.03 * AP - 15 * RefreshTime), where
Vile Poisons = 1 to 1.2 depending on talents;
Rank = the number of combo points or deadly poison doses, whichever is lower;
AP = your attack power;
RefreshTime = MutilateTime / (1 + MutilateTime / OffSpeed) / Improved Poisons, where
MutilateTime = average time in seconds between Mutilates
OffSpeed = the attack time of your offhand weapon
Improved Poisons = 0.3 to 0.4 depending on talents.

For example, with 3000 AP and Tracker's Blade (1.5 speed) in offhand, using 5-point Envenom assuming Mutilate every 6 seconds:

RefreshTime = 6 / (1 + 6 / 1.5) / 0.4 = 3 seconds
1.2 * 5 * (180 + 0.03 * 3000 - 15 * 3) = 1350 damage non-crit.

A 5-point Eviscerate would deal 1045 + 0.15 * 3000 = 1495 damage, modified by armor (897?). If you had only three Deadly Poison stacked, Envenom would deal 810 effective damage. So you see, there may be situations where the one is better than the other. Whether that situation occurs often or not is another matter.

 

baldycenarius

I raided as mutilate for a long time before i went to combat daggers, then to swords.

Mutilate is the most unpredictable build there is, i dont think there is a real "rotation" to it. Its simply a game of keeping SnD up, Find Weakness up, and Rupture up as much as possible while throwing in Envenoms where you see fit.

By my calculations rupture is always better then envenom due to energy cost mostly.

Heres basically what you could use, but im not sure its ideal:

4+Snd, 4+Rupture, 4+Envenom -- Repeat

 

Mojofabulous

hey aldriana, I don't suppose you ever got a chance to test out wsc and tt on the PTR to check their internal cooldown?

 

• Aldriana

Sorry, I haven't - I've been busy the past few days. I hope to have time this weekend, but, as always, no promises. And, again, as always, if someone would like to beat me to the punch, that'd be super .

 

Mojofabulous

I'm actually updating my PTR client, I have tsunami talisman...but no warp spring coil, I've only ever seen it drop once in all the times I've killed VR.

Is downloading the procwatch mod sufficient in testing the trinket on the blasted lands mob? How should I go about attacking it. Just auto attack?

actually the procwatch mods I can find on curse dont seem to have a minimum time between procs so dont think they'd be usefull for this. Not sure how to test it then.

 

• Aldriana

So, when researching an unknown proc, it's usually best to do it with a single weapon or with two weapons of the same speed. However, since we already know a bit about how Tsunami Talisman works, it's probably okay to use and two weapons you want, and to use all the combo-point generating moves you want. However, I'm a little iffy on how finishers work with procs, so I'd hold off on using any.

As for how to actually analyze data: easiest way is probably to just take a /combatlog of your test and post it to savefile (or wherever), at which point I'll grab it and run my analysis programs over it.

 

Mojofabulous

I'll use swiftsteel bludgeon and quickblade, both 1.5 speed without sword spec. Should keep everything nice and steady. I'll just shiv and snd. Unless you include snd in the finishers I shouldn't use? If so lemme know if you're still around and I won't.

 

uhohzombies

When I tested Madness of the Betrayer, I just used two same speed vendor bought weapons. I invited a feral druid into the party to sit by me stealthed and provide LotP healing and turned auto-attack on for 60 minutes. Seemed to work fine and Ald got the data needed from the combat log and ProcWatch.

As for WSC though, I suppose you would have to use specials.

 

• Aldriana

SnD shouldn't be a problem for Tsunami Talisman, as it can't crit. I'm not sure if casting SnD can proc stuff or not, in general - I would guess not, but I've never actually proved that.

 

Tinkerfizzle

Well, at one point S&D was considered to be a physical "attack" that could be missed, parried, dodged, etc, so maybe they did away with that functionality in the patch it was changed?

 

nilme

Maybe I was a little "casual" by those times, but after years of playing a rogue I never had the oportunity to see a SnD missing :S
On a second note: if dragonspine is getting an internal cd, anyone has any info on dragonmaw/dragonstrike? They have the same proc as dragonspine, albeit slightly worse at haste rating.

 

• Aldriana

The other item with a similar effect that would be worth testing is The Bladefist, if anyone wants to take a crack at that.

 

Tinkerfizzle

From Madness Labs - World of Warcraft - Changes from Live Patches to World of Warcraft Classes

Patches 1.09 and 1.10

Slice and Dice - This ability should no longer miss.

Slice and Dice - This ability can no longer be blocked, dodged, or parried, and cannot miss. If you attempt to use this ability when your target is dead, you will now receive an error message instead of displaying the spell animations.

 

songster

Aye, you should only use Envenom as the last finisher of a fight. Thing is, that's much much more than most people seem to think. The vast majority of trash fights go:

Garotte, Shiv, S'n'D, SS to 5 points, Envenom, move to next mob.

Using Shiv at the start there to build the DP stack while letting the tank get an aggro head start.

On tougher trash there might be time for a few CP of Rupture in the middle. But for anything other than boss fights, I'd say Envenom can and should make up 33 - 50% of all your finishers.

 

◊ Shaker

Man, it's kinda weird to think there are only a few rogues that remember the glory days of keeping CP on a dead mob that you could use to start SND before engaging the next mob ... holy shit those were fun times.. no more worry about having 34 energy and the mob has 3% health... just store up 2-3 CP for the next mob, get going early!

 

nilme

OT:Well I remember leveling in the Feralas cave and snding the last 2-3 points of the dead nagas to continue with the next mob, but I cannot remember a snd missing

On topic: How can I test dragonmaw? My procwatch does not have a minimum time between procs, should I just go attack a servant without dragonspine and no offhand and just record a combat log? I guess I can use a PTR premade and wield dragonstrike instead, my dragonmaw is mongoose'd :S.

 

• Aldriana

That would be perfect, yes.

 

Mojofabulous

I'm still waiting for blizz to copy my character over...been like 18 hours now.

 

nilme

Just finished a small test, 55 mins hitting a servant(1000 hits aprox). Not a big sample but maybe useful in some way. Conditions:
a) Full hit gear:no misses(wasn't sure of the amount of hit I needed for this)
b) Just dragonstrike unenchanted on mainhand. No haste effects at all
c) No specials used, just autoattack. Evasion&Talisman of the horde&Blind+Bandage used from time to time

There may be some data "corruption" from a shaman that came by to hit the mob and had dragonstrike equipped, guess it's easy to just remove his damage from the log.
Log: Free file hosting by Savefile.com

Took a glance on the log file and saw some interesting stuff. First of all:only 4 haste procs in the first 7mins, just bad luck with RNG I guess.
After that:
9/12 15:11:27.125 You gain Haste.
9/12 15:11:37.093 Haste fades from you.
9/12 15:11:40.812 You gain Haste.
9/12 15:11:50.765 Haste fades from you.
9/12 15:11:52.781 You gain Haste.

I don't really know how internal cooldowns work. Do they start "ticking" after the fade or after the gain?

 

Mojofabulous

I got a question about the ashtongue talisman of lethality. I know the uptime on it is really important, I'm assuming your spreadsheet accounts for this but wanted to make sure. I was kinda suprised that my suggested rotation didn't change from 3.7s/5r at all when I equipped the talisman. I get the trinket soon so I'm curious if 3.7s/5r is still the best for me or if I'd get better uptime from 5s/5r. 5s/5r has always just been a TAD under the estimated DPS I'd get from 3.7s/5r. (by like 4-5 dps)

I get the trinket hopefully this week so I'm really curious now.

 

songster

9/12 15:21:00.484 You gain Haste.
9/12 15:21:20.187 Haste fades from you.

9/12 15:22:52.656 You gain Haste.
9/12 15:23:21.812 Haste fades from you.

9/12 15:24:24.250 You gain Haste.
9/12 15:24:39.250 Haste fades from you.

9/12 15:35:31.453 You gain Haste.
9/12 15:35:48.453 Haste fades from you.

9/12 15:56:30.171 You gain Haste.
9/12 15:56:47.375 Haste fades from you.


That's five instances where the buff lasts longer than 10 seconds. There may be others which I didn't catch by eye. Unless you had multiple lagspikes of more than 5 seconds' duration, I think it's safe to say that the proc can refresh itself. That means that any internal cooldown is less than the duration of the proc itself and is unlikely to be significant.

Just to confirm: This was on the current PTR?

 

• Aldriana

Analysis of the dragonstrike log:

44 uptime periods, including 5 periods 15 seconds or longer, the longest being the 29 sec uptime at 15:22:52.656. Hence, at least 50 procs actually occurred, and there is no internal cooldown.

There were 1272 total swings; the proc rate (assuming 50 procs) thus lies between 2.86% and 5.00%, which equates to being between .64 and 1.11 PPM. Note that this does not take into account the new findings regarding reduction of proc rate with haste effects.

On the whole: still seems to be the same proc as on live.

Regarding hit: when single-wielding, the amount of hit required to never miss a Servant is extremely low. There are some uncertainties in the exact formula, but it is certainly true that 4% hit will be sufficient, and there's a good chance you don't actually need any at all.

Regarding internal cooldowns: Typically they're measured from start of proc to start of proc. The fact that you had refreshing procs indicates that if an internal cooldown exists, it is 5 seconds or less. Since we have no evidence of internal cooldowns shorter than the length of the proc existing, it is therefore generally assumed that this means there is, in fact, no internal cooldown.