• Aldriana

Uptime is pretty similar between 3.Xs5r and 5s5r, in reality. While it's true that since you're using smaller finishers, it will not proc every time, it's also true that since your cycle is shorter, the uptime% is higher when it *does* proc. In fact, the only reasons 3.Xs5r and 5s5r don't have *exactly* the same uptime on average is that 3.Xs5r will lose a second here and there due to overlapping procs. So there's really no strong selection pressure towards 5s5r purely because of Ashtongue uptime reasons.

Why you *might* see a shift towards 5s5r from Ashtongue is that it provides you with a significant amount of crit; and given enough crit/AP/armor penetration, it is possible for 5s5r to pass the more compressed cycles in damage output - see post 653 for an explanation of this phenomenon.

On a related note: I noticed while looking at this that there's a slight glitch in the Ashtongue calculations which is going to make it underestimate the value of crit for compressed cycles slightly (for instance, it's showing 66% uptime with my current gear when it should be showing more like 68%). I will be updating this model in a future release to get a little better accuracy.

 

nilme

Thanks for the analysis, I didn't know I could "catch" refreshing procs by tracking the duration.
To confirm:this was done TODAY(I finished it like 10mins before posting the log here) on the EU PTR, which I guess shares the same build with the US one

 

Mojofabulous

Thanks, I don't have QUITE that level of gear yet so I think it's safe to say I should stick with the suggested rotation :p

 

ultimaratio

Hey guys i would ask if u can help me doing more dps on raids, right now im like 2d or 1st on most boss , kael, kara, moro , void , etc.. My guild just entered Hyjal, so my gear has nothing from it or BT.

Can u please help me be more effective ? im a full pve rogue Thanks for helping me !

ps: My hit rating ok ? or too much ?

Link to armory :

The Armory

Thanks in advance for any comentary !

 

Mojofabulous

Your gear makes sense as does your talent build. As long as you're using a decent rotation on boss fights the rest is just up to you and your group comp. Get windfury and battleshout, use a flask or agi pot and some warp burger. After that, just push yourself always. Don't die. I'm sure you're doin just fine.

 

Dontmindme

The only thing you need to be careful of, is whether a refreshed proc actually procced 3 or more times instead of just 2. Tracking the duration may not always tell you if a proc refreshed twice.

For example: (fictional proc that lasts 15 secs)
Time 0 sec - Proc gain
Time 5 sec - Proc refresh
Time 10 sec - Proc refresh
Time 25 sec - Proc ends

You wouldn't know it refreshed twice unless you were actually watching the proc on the screen.

 

Dread

Here we go, a first look at the MH exalted ring:

- surl.se/druf

only a short 500hits session, but its pretty conclusive about its usefulness, test was with glaive and bludgeon, 177 hit rating on a warrior only auto-attacking and it seems to have an internal cooldown..
Would guess ~90 seconds, but will have to wait for a combatlog to say for sure :P


edit: pretty horrible tbh.. would have expected more from such a ring requiring that amount of time to get.

 

• Aldriana

Yeah, that's kind of disappointing, though, I would argue, not particularly surprising. The rogue rings for all the lower reps are terrible, why should the exalted one be any different?

That said, it's still probably the #3 ring option - even if it only procs once every 2min, it still matches Ring of Lethality. But it's certainly well short of Stormrage Signet Ring, and appears likely to be inferior to Ring of Deceitful Intent as well. So while disappointing, it's not totally useless, either, if you've had bad luck with the BT rings.

 

Mojofabulous

Thats pretty disappointing. Makes sense though I guess. Apparantly blizzard just hates me btw, my character simply won't transfer over to ptr. Not sure I'll be able to test trinket.

 

enno

Aldriana, is it perhaps possible to include a change-log in your first post?
In this particular case I was wondering if your spreadsheet already accounts for the 2.2 haste nerf. If not, is there a spreadsheet available that does? Would be nice to plan ahead on what the best items will be next patch.

 

• Vulajin

In the "Advanced Settings" section of Aldriana's sheet, there is an option to activate the 2.2 PTR haste rating nerf.

 

enno

Thanks, and dang what a change. With only DST I lose 50 dps

 

Mojofabulous

you're gonna lose more than that. Ald hasn't included the internal cooldown from ptr in that sheet yet.

 

• Aldriana

And, moreover, Ald hasn't implemented the recent findings about haste reducing PPM proc rates. Once all the changes are said and done, haste will be *absolute* crap, and Dragonspine will be about where it's supposed to be in power. Which will, coincidentally, drop the value of hit by a fair amount. Just so you know.

 

koaschten

I wonder if i have to re-socket or re-gear

 

• Aldriana

Well, my feeling is that on the high end we'll still end up socketing everything with orange gems since the red ones tend to be in short supply due to all casters wanting them. But we'll see how the numbers work out - I'm gonna hold off on releasing a new version until the patch comes out.

 

Mojofabulous

Is that ALL haste affects? Like SnD and bladeflurry? Or just Haste Rating? Because currently without dragonspine trophy (never got it) Agi is valued at 2.28 vs hit's 2.52 for my gear level. I actually have no haste rating items on me at all.

 

• Aldriana

Well, SnD and Blade Flurry are still going to be worth using. I was referring mostly to haste itemization - haste rating is going to become one of the least valuable stats per item budget if all the nerfs go through. I'm hoping they will not, but if they do... it's going to gimp a lot of BT nonset drops quite badly.

 

songster

Current consensus fron testing on live and PTR is that there is no chance in PPM behaviour. Rather, PPM procs have always been normalised based on your current weapon speed, and the modelling has thus been wrong for the last two years on this point.

 

dmw

hi guys,

I have a real dumb question... but well, there are no dumb q's, just dumb answers
and because of the new-thread-rules, this was the best thread i can ask this questions. and hell yes, i read the threads and i did not found an answer to this specific problem. excuse me, if have overlooked something...

i've just been combat dagger for a few weeks, since I geht Vashj's Fang. from this point on, I really sucked at dps. I worked out the spreadsheed to get the optimal cycle to use. i did it there (boss only of course, trash is a other thing ^^), but I did about 3-5% less damage (#3 before (16-45 with dragonstrike + S2 OH-sword + both specs), #12 with daggers (classic 15-41-5). on tidewalker, lurker, karathress.. all nearly just as well to test dps as each other. equipment was nearly the same. spreadsheet told me just about 20 total dps less with daggers than with mace/sword.

yesterday we started raiding with 4 rogues in ssc, i was the (un)lucky one, who doesnt get WF totem, because i was the only dagger-rogue, the others were all sword or mace/sword. Reason: "Sword rogues does have a huge (numbers like 2.000.000 times appeared ^^) more benefit than dagger rouges from windfury". I argued with "in the end it's for all specs nearly the same... on lower weapons it procs less, but does more dmg, on faster weapons it procs more, but does less dmg. wf is an +dmg of ~20% of whitedmg to the total dmg, regardless of spec." nobody believed me, so i had just 5% crit from an feraldruid, the other three rogues had imp BS + WF totem all the time.

now, we wiped on hydross (no comments pls, i know myself that those were dumbass-wipes, not really dmg or heal-related...) several times. raidleader whispered me, asking me if i may respec, because i were #12, a few % behind every other rogue. i said "hey, look at the support of the others, than look on my support, than ask again if you want." result: i was switched with the worst equipped (S2-MH+OH-sword-)rogue on the other grp. result of that: i did 1% more dmg than the tries before, but was always fighting on #9 and #10 of dmgmeter with this rogue (who did then ~2% less dmg than before).

a few wipes later (i yet don't know what was going on this evening ^^) we all hat to repair our equipment, so i decided to respec to mace/sword. so I did, we had another dump wipe, but then this sucker went down, #1 was our best equipped rogue, #2 a warlock, #3-5 the other 3 rogues, I was #5 with just 1% behind #4, and that without having WF + Imp BS (I had the honor to be the badass rogue who I was at the start again...). later on Lurker it was exactly the same chart on damagemeter.


Now a few thougths:

- were the others right with there meanings of WF, that it is much much much better for non-dagger-rogues?

- does dagger really is that bad in raids? i cannot believe this, because if i look to armory, I can find many rogues who are daggerspecced, even in BT/MH.. i also know, it is suboptimal for fights which has a shitload of movement, but THAT much? i don't get it why i was THIS far behind the others.
i use recount with 200y combatlogrange, so i can have a look at every skills everyone used. hydross is immune to poison + rupture, so everyone's using eviscerate if they don't know what to do with their combopoints. because of the cost of backstab of 60 instead 40 energy, i can do less eviscerates than the others, of course. but their eviscerates did just about 15k dmg more than my eviscerates, what cannot be the HUGE lack of less damage i did (i talk about the 2-3 trys a HAD the WF debuff, just for clarification). so wtf is going on with daggers in scc?^^ i cannot say that i'm playing bad, i used haste pot on every cd, snd was (of course) always on, BF + AR + Bloodlust Brooch on every CD on the adds... i really don't know what I could have done better :-|

any suggestions?
dmw

 

songster

No. Up until the recent WF nerf, they would have been right. WF used to proc off instants, meaning that sword rogues get large heavy-hitting procs from their instants while dagger rogues get small procs.

That behaviour has now changed, and both builds should see similar benefits from WF. If anything, dagger rogues should see fractionally more benefit due to the (flat) AP bonus on the larger number of WF procs.

 

• Aldriana

No. This used to be true, but since the WF hotfix, dagger rogues actually benefit just slightly more than sword rogues. It's all but equal, but if you want to be technical, dagger rogues do gain a bit more.


Dagger spec is pretty gimpy for raids, in general. That said, Hydross is actually a pretty good fight for dagger rogues, given that 2 of the 3 advantages of sword spec do not apply (see post 490 for details of my theory of how swords beat daggers). So while I'd expect sword rogues to beat dagger rogues on Hydross, it shouldn't be by the margin you seem to be finding.

If I had to guess, I would say that you're probably having positioning issues on the adds and are wasting energy trying to get it. It's also a common mistake to have SnD gaps with daggers while changing targets frequently. But past that, I couldn't say.

 

Allessa

I'm a dagger rogue, although I only recently started to inform myself on thread such as this one, I was always instinctivly succesfull at beeing #1 or less then 0.5% from the #1.

On fight such as Hydross, I usually skip on doing Eviserate and just keep on doing backstab till I need to refresh SnD. Backstab crits at 30% more then eviserate and does more damage (since I don't have aggression and imp evis)

I never have WF even when I'm combat spec btw, so I guess I could be more efficient with it.

 

Mojofabulous

This kind of confused me. Where can I read through that discussion?

 

Stabmaster

Another question might be why are you #12 on DPS? I have no problem hitting #1. Do you have a WWS log? I am certain there is a lot of room for optimization here. Even when I had far worse gear I was at least in the top 5.