Mojofabulous

I'm just going off what I believe I've heard ald say, which is as long as you have at least 355 weapon skill inserted in to that spreadsheet, your dps will be accurate. If you dont, it wont.

EDIT: I believe in the front page and in one of the last couple pages ald talks about doing so. (adding a stats section for your gear)

 

• Aldriana

Regarding weapon skill:

Assuming you have at least 355 weapon skill, the sheet should be reasonably accurate. Since the effect of weapon skill on dodge isn't totally pinned down yet, I can't say for sure whether they're totally accurate. But they should be relatively close.

I've been debating with myself whether to update the model to give correct damage numbers under 355 skill. On the one hand, this would give a more accurate damage number; on the other hand, the nonlinearities would cause some inaccuracies in the gear-comparison. Is there a concensus regarding whether people would rather see the dps number more accurate, or the gear comarisons/recommendations more accurate?

Regarding AP/Crit summary:

Yes, I'd like to add such a thing (and probably an HP/Dodge summary as well); I haven't yet decided whether this should be the time-averaged buff stats used in the damage calculations, or the base stats as they would appear on your character sheet. I can see value in both.

The ultimate goal is to compress all useful information onto as few sheets as possible. I would eventually like to see the information on the buffs sheet and the set bonus sheet displayed somewhere on the front page, such that there would be only two pages that one would ever need to look at (Talents_Equipment and Advanced Settings). And on those pages it would have all adjustable parameters (gear/talents/buffs), stat summaries, gear comparisons, next-stat values, the works. The trick is figuring out where to put everything, as the front page is already quite full. Again, if people have suggestions, let me know.

 

niwrad

This has been briefly mentioned a few times throughout this thread but no definitive conclusion appears to have been made. The sheet appears to greatly favor Murder over Lethality point-for-point. For the purpose of discussion, assume all mobs are such that Murder is applicable (which is mostly the case for my current level of progression in SSC / TE).

Two questions:
1. Is Murder really that much better than Lethality point-for-point?
2. Isn't there an amount of crit % attainable such that Lethality yields more dps than Murder, particularly for dagger rogues w/ imp backstab?

 

Stabmaster

1) Absolutely, on mobs that are affected by Murder. In places like SSC/TK, where mobs of the mobs are affected, it's a great talent.

2) Not really, it all depends on the type of mob being attacked. In Hyjal/BT, Murder becomes less valuable because of the lack of vulnerable mobs.

 

• Aldriana

So, first off: the sheet assumes that all mobs are murderable, which, while certainly true of many mobs in SSC and TK, it is not true of all of them; notably, Hydross, Void Reaver, and Al'ar are excluded. Additionally, Vashj and Kael both have adds that are not effected by murder. So Murder isn't quite 100% universal even in SSC and TK. Once one moves *past* SSC/TK, the value of Murder drops somewhat; not a single enemy in Hyjal is murderable, and only about half of BT is.

That said: on the mobs that murder effects, it is point-for-point a pretty strong talent.

Running the actual numbers versus Lethality:

Murder increases your total damage output - white, yellow, poison, everything - by 1% per point. Lethality only increases the damage you do with yellow attacks. Yellow attacks typically comprise about 1/3 of ones damage; hence, in order for Lethality to match the contribution of Murder (on those mobs affected by both), a point of Lethality would need to increase your yellow damage by about 3%.

Lethality, mechanically speaking, increases the damage done by your critical strikes by 3% (the first point takes them from 200 -> 206%, a 3% increase). Hence, if the total damage done by both crits and noncrits is going to increase by 3%, all yellow attacks must crit. Hence, in order for Lethality to point-for-point compete with Murder on those mobs which are affected, one would basically need to have a 100% crit rate; even with improved backstab that would require a tooltip crit rate of 70%, which isn't really feasible.

Now, that said, *since* not all mobs are affected by Murder, Lethality doesn't necessarily need to do as much damage against those that are Murderable in order to be worthwhile. In particular, if one assumes that, say, 2/3 of mobs are Murderable (which is probably a fair assessment of bosses in SSC/TK), then only ~67% of yellow hits need to be crits in order for Lethality to yield the same average damage output - and a 37% crit rate is not out of the range of possibility for a raid-buffed dagger rogue. So I think there is a legitimate case to be made for Lethality even though Murder does do more damage on the mobs it affects.

 

Trazhenko

The big difference lies in the fact that Murder applies to all damage, whereas Lethality only applies to crits on specials.

Suppose that without points in either talent, you do 100 DPS.

Getting Murder would take you to 102 DPS, that's pretty easy to see.

Let's look at the best case for Lethality. If you had 100% to crit with backstab, 2 points in lethality would increase backstab damage by 6% (all BS's are crits, and they change from 200% to 212%). The increase to your total output then depends on how much of your damage came from crit backstabs before you invested the talent points. If backstab crits were accounting for more than 1/3 of your damage, lethality would be better than murder.

I haven't been daggers for a little while, so I don't remember the breakdown, but I want to say that my backstab % was in the high 20's/low 30's, white damage high 50's/low 60's, and the rest rupture/poison/etc. "Low 30's? Great! Lethality rocks! Right?" No. I didn't have 100% to crit, so the portion represented by backstab crits was even smaller, and I had 4/5 lethality already. It's not like I could add 6% to my backstab output by investing more points.

Don't get me wrong. I had lethality and ruthlessness, and no murder, because they worked on all targets equally, but lethality is not a particularly strong talent point for point. It does increase damage, but not as well as many other talents.

EDIT: Doh Ald posted faster.

 

Mojofabulous

that'll teach you to be helpfull, HAH! :p

 

Dimgo

Let me see if i got this straight, 1agi>1hit without the DST? and 1agi>hit with DST pos-patch?

 

• Aldriana

Hit still provides point-for-point more damage than agility in purely sustained fights. However, in terms of weighted average (which includes a slight value for the dodge gained from agility), Agility scores a bit above hit.

Additionally, agility performs better relative to hit in interrupted fights; as such, while hit may be better in purely sustained fights, in real fights where their are damage interruptions (which includes, for instance, better than half of the 25-man raid bosses in existance), agility may be the better choice (I'm working on a model of this behavior, but haven't come up with one I'm wholly happy with.)

Finally, those numbers were based off the best possible gear setup - the target endgame gear. Until one gets there, the relative values of the different trinkets may be difference. For instance, in my *current* gear (as opposed to the endgame optimal gear), hit is still better than agility, and the trinket ordering is rather different:

1) Dragonspine - 198
2) Ashtongue - 180
3) Madness - 165
4) WSC - 155
5) TT - 151

In practice, I suspect practical considerations will outweigh the exact subtleties, specifically:
a) By the time one can get Madness, one is probably close to/already has Ashtongue, which is comparable or better. So you probably don't bother with Madness.

b) At the time you have access to them, while WSC is slightly better than TT, they are fairly comparable, so I would advocate the WDF (Whatever Drops First) or WDFAIC (...And Is Cheap) algorithm for deciding which to get.

c) Amongst BT gems, red gems tend to be more popular than orange gems, and the yellow +hit gem doesn't exist. So in practice, even if agi is marginally superior to hit, it doesn't matter enough that I'd worry about wrestling Crimson Spinels away from the casters and hunters; hence, regardless of the specifics, you probably wind up socketing everything with Glinting Pyrestones.

d) Pre-BT, hit is still better, so keep doing what you've been doing.

Regarding the interplay of DST and Hit, specifically: it was one of the very first discoveries of this sheet that DST dramatically increased the value of hit. The more general rule is "having powerful procs increases the value of hit". The reason why hit is king for rogues these days is the fact that we have so many procs: Combat Potency, Poison, Mongoose, DST, Windfury, Sword Spec, etc. So if you don't have DST (or Mongoose, or Combat Potency, or Windfury, or whatever), the value of hit is going to drop relative to a rogue that does. The reason why the value of hit is decreasing relative to previous versions of the sheet is based off the new findings regarding PPM effects and haste, plus the fact that DST is a less powerful proc due to the haste nerf and the internal cooldown.

 

Mojofabulous

Free file hosting by Savefile.com

Another combat log. This time with sword spec, talon MH quickblade OH, double mongoose. The first half-ish I spam shiv and keep snd refreshed. The last half-ish I just auto attack.

 

Mojofabulous

9/14 16:17:51.718 Fury of the Crashing Waves fades from you
9/14 16:18:28.531 You gain Fury of the Crashing Waves.


9/14 16:33:10.718 Fury of the Crashing Waves fades from you.
9/14 16:33:46.156 You gain Fury of the Crashing Waves.

 

• Aldriana

I measure cooldowns start-to-start, not end-to-start. So when I say "45 seconds", the actual time between end of proc and start of next would be 35 seconds. Those are spaced by 36.8 and 35.4 seconds, hence, start-to-start, they are still both over 45 seconds.

 

Mojofabulous

yea I figured. I was just adding 10 seconds to that. was just easier to copy paste that way while I'm alt-tabbing /farming :-p

I might of missed it, but manually going through there I see no instance where it procced sooner than 45 seconds.

 

Tyrne

There's also the fact that quite a few of the end game items have yellow sockets as opposed to red sockets therefore meaning you wouldn't receive socket bonuses on items like Slayer's Chestguard, Insidious Bands, Slayer's Shoulderpads (if making use of the blue socket) and Shadowmaster's Boots if you opted for agi gems over agi/hit.

 

• Aldriana

Well, obviously you use yellow gems where you need them for socket bonuses - the rule of thumb is that any socket bonus that can be gotten with only yellow and red gems is worth getting (the only exception that comes to mind is Wastewalker Gloves, and even that one is debatable). And, certainly, one will need to socket 2-Tier 6 level pieces with yellow/blue gems to get the socket bonus (most likely shoulders + chest). But anywhere where you don't need the socket bonus, and in any red socket, one can make a case for using Delicate Crimson Spinels. I believe my endgame optimal gear, neglecting considerations of gem scarcity, involves 4 Delicate Crimson Spinel (one each in T6 gloves, T6 legs, Don Alejandro's Money Belt, and Shadowmaster's Boots).

However, as I say, in practice, you probably end up gemming even those 4 with Glinting Pyrestones, because the difference is so small that your guild probably benefits more by leaving the Crimson Spinels to the casters + hunters.

 

• Aldriana

Shortest spacing: 44.985 seconds.
Procs: 51
Crits outside 45 sec cooldown: 506
Avg Proc Rate: 10.1%
Std Dev: 1.3%

So... 45 sec internal cooldown, 10% proc rate it is?

 

Mojofabulous

definitely appears to be the case.

 

Karmon

I think with the advent of different dmgreduction effects and the nonlinearity
of the reduction formula the extra computation for WSC-reduction should go away.
IMO it should be the same as it is done for Madness of the Betrayer.
(thottbot e.g lists the effect of Madness, WSC and T6 items as the same spell)

 

Karmon

In the spreadsheet there is an error regarding AP critproc trinkets.
In the Trinket sheet all the AP increasesare summed together and this sum is then multiplied with the uptime computed for the tsunami talisman.

That need not be correct for the Hourglass or other trinktes that may be released.

 

• Aldriana

The extra step is done precisely because armor penetration is nonlinear; WSC is modeled as a 1000 armor reduction that's up, say, 25% of the time, rather than a 250 armor reduction that's up 100% of the time, as that more accurately reflects reality. In truth, Madness of the Betrayer would be more accurately modeled as 300 penetration that's up ~50% of the time rather than ~150 armor penetration. I do not do so for two reasons:

a) This becomes a very messy calculation in very short order if you compute every armor penetration proc seperately, and
b) As it's a smaller armor decrease, the nonlinearity has less of an effect.

Yes, all of them actually have the same effect - they reduce armor. And the sheet models them all the same way - they reduce armor.

1) It *is* correct for Hourglass; data collected indicated to my satisfaction that TT and Hourglass exhibit the same proc behavior.
2) Critproc AP is defined as "AP from procs that work the way TT and Hourglass do". So any trinket in the future that procs by a different pattern wouldn't use that column, because it wouldn't be "critproc AP" the way I've defined it.

 

Mojofabulous

Discussion seems to have wrapped up a bit till patch is out. I gonna throw out a wrench and see what happens.

Trash dps scenerio!

You're on hyjal trash, stuff dying really fast so rupture is basically impossible. You have 3 combo points and 5-8 seconds left on snd and mob is about to die. Do you evic or refresh snd? I got nothing in imp evic and broke my 2 piece t5 recently for t6 gloves. Generally speaking I've always done good consistant dps on trash...but mostly cause I'm obsessive about being 100% focused all the time. When it comes to split second decisions like the one above, I just wing it. Any thoughts on an efficient way to handle mid-range combo points in a quickly shifting target cycle?

btw the reason I don't bring up envenom at all is because I usually have mindnumbing up and WF

 

• Aldriana

So, couple of things:

1) I was doing some testing this evening on live, and as an incidental benefit of what I was *actually* testing, took some data on Tsunami Talisman. Out of 59 total procs, the spacing never was under 46.281 seconds. So the values on test would appear to not be changed - the spreadsheet was just using slightly wrong values. I'll add it to the list of things to fix.

2) What I was *actually* testing is the proc rate of 4/5 T5. Offhand, the answer seems to be "about .5 PPM with no internal cooldown" - I'll need to take a larger data set at some point to confirm that, but that's my best guess at this stage. If that is, in fact, true, that means that the spreadsheet is currently overvaluing that set bonus somewhat for sword rogues and by quite a bit for dagger rogues. Again, added to the list, pending confirmation.

3) Re: Trash DPS scenario. I haven't actually run any numbers on this, so trust the following assertion only assuming you trust my gut instincts:

As a general rule, you want to keep SnD up as much as humanly possible. So if there are additional mobs to be killed on hand (i.e. if you're killing a pack of stuff and there's more stuff left in the pack), I typically refresh the SnD. If, however, there's no further mobs in the pack (or the next DPS target is far away), I'll generally throw the Evis if it's 3 points or larger, *or* if I have energy for it but not a SS (i.e. my current energy is 35-39).

Again, no real theory backing that, that's just my instinct.

 

• Aldriana

Update on 4/5 Proc rate:

With 2x1.3 speed weapons, I had 36 periods of uptime including at least 49 distinct procs out of 4103 attacks. 95% confirence interval: .86% to 1.52%, aka .40 to .70 PPM.

With 2x2.6 speed weapons, I had 57 periods of uptime including at least 69 distinct procs out of 3535 attacks. 95% confidence interval: 1.50% to 2.41%, aka .35 to .55 PPM

So... .5 PPM certainly looks to be the more likely outcome, but 1.5% proc rate cannot be entirely ruled out.

...sigh.

Guess we need, you guessed it, still more data to resolve this one.

 

Cybelirrae

So you favor the money belt over Vash'j's belt now? Gratz on the t6 shoulders. :P

 

Mojofabulous

So last night we were trying to get some apps keyed for hyjal/bt and I got to do tidewalker. I never got bubbled and never lost DPS time. Didn't lose any energy ticks either. I did a 4s/5r cycle and refreshed SND to maintain that smooth cycle (rather than try to throw in a evic or whatever.

I used Agi pot, warp burger, WF MH, deadly OH. I did NOT have battleshout or mangle. I input all the applicable buffs in to the below spreadsheet that also includes the gear I was using at the time.

That gear spreadsheet is here: Free file hosting by Savefile.com

This is a screenshot of the DPS I did, my actual tidewalker dps was almost dead on at 1400(I believe it was 1401 when he died), having to kill a full wave of murlocs afterwards caused it to drop by about 40:

ImageShack - Hosting :: wowscrnshot091607214557tu0.jpg


I thought this might be a good example for some comparisons based on how smooth the combat went for me. It was basically a perfect fight, no energy loss, perfect cycle, no interruptions. Currently the spreadsheet is off by nearly a full 100dps. I figure this is due to inaccurate armor count on tidewalker?