They could be confusing the numbers from the striking enchant to ring with the [Crystalforged Trinket] just assuming that both are +damage. It is 3.5x the ap equivalent of the enchant which puts the AP range in the 50s with daggers.
They could be confusing the numbers from the striking enchant to ring with the [Crystalforged Trinket] just assuming that both are +damage. It is 3.5x the ap equivalent of the enchant which puts the AP range in the 50s with daggers.
Where are you getting that? Just math you did? And that would only be for the +7 weapon dmg. +2 to each ring is +4, which would be around 35ish according to your number?
It may be because of my low hit right now (234) and so it would decrease its value? Not sure, but either way, I show it far less than 50 and about half of what you show.
Odd. If you want to post your copy of the sheet somewhere I'll take a look at it - having low hit shouldn't affect it that much. I mean, my hit is only 231 and I still show it as 12.38, so... I'm not sure.
I spent <1k gold to level LW and got 12-15dps increase from swiftstrike. I will get around 10-12 from already having JC. I'm not going to spend 3-5k gold to get enchanting for 11-12 ap. LOL
Enchanting doesn't cost 3-5k gold to level. I mean, it's expensive, don't get my wrong, but I'm pretty sure I didn't pay much over 2k to level it to 375... and that was before they lowered the materials on some of the high end enchants. This is not to say you should or shouldn't level it; I merely assert that it's not quite as expensive as you have stated.
Odd. If you want to post your copy of the sheet somewhere I'll take a look at it - having low hit shouldn't affect it that much. I mean, my hit is only 231 and I still show it as 12.38, so... I'm not sure.
Enchanting doesn't cost 3-5k gold to level. I mean, it's expensive, don't get my wrong, but I'm pretty sure I didn't pay much over 2k to level it to 375... and that was before they lowered the materials on some of the high end enchants. This is not to say you should or shouldn't level it; I merely assert that it's not quite as expensive as you have stated.
I'll find a place to host it and then load it up later tonite after my night class. Not sure why it shows so low a value, but it just keeps me from wanting to level it even more. Also, even at 2k, that seems overly expensive for a profession that, on average, doesn't make much money in the end and only would offer these two ring enchants, nothing really substantial that is "BOP-profession holder only" type thing. Maybe once I'm complete in end-game gear and want to assert an extra 20-30 ap that I can't get any other way, I'll drop one of my two professions. Until then, nah.
I see what you did now, that makes sense. So together, the ring enchants give around 30ap, generally. That's not bad, but again, I don't see it being worth it until you're completely decked out in end-game gear/weps with no other avenue of dps increase...
I would argue that the ring enchants are the "BoP-profession-holder-only" itemization for enchanters; you get 2 ring enchants that you can't get as a nonenchanter. In fact, when you work out the numbers for a late BT rogues, Enchanting is one of the two most beneficial profession, by a significant margin. Consider:
Enchanting gives two ring enchants, totaling +8 str, agi, and sta, which works out to about 30 AP of offensive benefit.
Jewelcrafting gives the ability to include BoP epic gems in your gear; however, only two of the JC gems (Delicate Fire Ruby and Rigid Bladestone) are actually upgrades over BT gems; hence you gain a grand total of 2 agi and 2 hit relative to socketing the same two slots with Glinting Pyrestones, for a net benefit of about 10 AP.
Leatherworking gives you no long-term passive benefits, as Swiftstrike is not best-in-slot anywhere; however, the ability to make and use drums can be fairly beneficial; if used every time the cool is up, they provide about a 50 AP benefit in a sustained DPS scenario... to your entire group. This does get expensive after a while, of course, so in practice they tend to be used more selectively; however, it's still a nontrivial bonus in the endgame.
As such, in terms of a late BT rogue, there is a pretty compelling argument to be made for Leatherworking/Enchanting as the best two professions, with Enchanting/JC being the alternative.
Now, in practice, most of us aren't to that level of progression, and while in SSC/TK/early BT/whatever, a number of other professions have merit (Engineering for Deathblow goggles; more of the JC gems are worth using, etc.). But in the long run, I really do think Enchanting is where one optimally winds up.
I would argue that the ring enchants are the "BoP-profession-holder-only" itemization for enchanters; you get 2 ring enchants that you can't get as a nonenchanter. In fact, when you work out the numbers for a late BT rogues, Enchanting is one of the two most beneficial profession, by a significant margin. Consider:
Enchanting gives two ring enchants, totaling +8 str, agi, and sta, which works out to about 30 AP of offensive benefit.
Jewelcrafting gives the ability to include BoP epic gems in your gear; however, only two of the JC gems (Delicate Fire Ruby and Rigid Bladestone) are actually upgrades over BT gems; hence you gain a grand total of 2 agi and 2 hit relative to socketing the same two slots with Glinting Pyrestones, for a net benefit of about 10 AP.
Leatherworking gives you no long-term passive benefits, as Swiftstrike is not best-in-slot anywhere; however, the ability to make and use drums can be fairly beneficial; if used every time the cool is up, they provide about a 50 AP benefit in a sustained DPS scenario... to your entire group. This does get expensive after a while, of course, so in practice they tend to be used more selectively; however, it's still a nontrivial bonus in the endgame.
As such, in terms of a late BT rogue, there is a pretty compelling argument to be made for Leatherworking/Enchanting as the best two professions, with Enchanting/JC being the alternative.
Now, in practice, most of us aren't to that level of progression, and while in SSC/TK/early BT/whatever, a number of other professions have merit (Engineering for Deathblow goggles; more of the JC gems are worth using, etc.). But in the long run, I really do think Enchanting is where one optimally winds up.
I wasn't putting Enchanting as a "provides no BOP" aspect, I was trying to say that benefits gained right now are miniscule compared to JC/LW for myself.
True, you gain 2 hit and 2 agi but you also go another 4ap (Crimson Sun 24ap) over the 20ap BT gem. Also, as far as I can tell the Rigid Bladestone (12hit) didnt make it into the patch, or is it off a vendor I didnt notice?
But for a pre Hyjal/BT rogue, as myself, with gems going to casters first, since we're a caster guild...ugh... I actually gain 8ap on the crimson sun, 6agi and 6hit over my current gems, making a benefit of almost 32ap, counting hit and agi as 2ap of course.
As for LW, I gain the swiftstrike set which, until BT/Late-Hyjal shoulders/wrists, are the best for a rogue, even post 2.2. As we get into Hyjal and I get upgrades, I will certainly be looking at sacrificing LW for possibly Enchanting, but probably not until Inscription comes out in the XP to see if that is a viable melee dps profession (as of now, I dont think it will be, but we'll see).
All in all, I agree with you fully, end-game professions will probably be Enchanting/LW for most rogues pre-XP, but as of now, I'm not willing to lose the time/money invested in LW/JC until I've started to get my fill of BT gems. By the way, how common are these gems/patterns? I've heard anything from fairly common to horrible drop rates and wondering, if farming just first 2 bosses of Hyjal and first 3-4 bosses of BT in an effort to gain raid experience, could we be seeing a large amount of gems/patterns, or are we going to be bickering each night over a gem or two? lol
Just how good are these? I passed on them last night because I didn't initially see them to be as good as Tier 4 gloves, seeing as I'm still about 30 points shy of hit cap as it is.
Just how good are these? I passed on them last night because I didn't initially see them to be as good as Tier 4 gloves, seeing as I'm still about 30 points shy of hit cap as it is.
I'm wanting to find out if I made a mistake ><
thanks
Better than T4 (unless gloves are your second piece for the two-piece bonus) and worse than T5.
Two things:
1) Actually, I can think of a reason to model Improved Eviscerate, namely Rupture immune mobs. This is another reason some might spec Improved Eviscerate since you'll have to be using Eviscerate to spend those extra combo points. Although, that said, such an addition should be considered a bonus. I wouldn't worry about it until the sheet is finally the way you want it in terms of Rupture as the primary finishing move.
2) Speaking of the Crystalforged Trinket, it would be nice if this was added to the sheet. It is on par with some of the other trinkets in the sheet and if you happen to have been unlucky with instance drops, it may be your best option since all it requires is reputation that most raiders have by doing dailies to keep up with raiding costs. It's the only item I'm currently using that isn't modeled. About 30 runs in Black Morass and no Hourglass, every Kara seems to be Oz, and Gruul has yet to even drop a Dragonspine Trophy for my guild and the guild is planning just 5 more Gruul's Lair runs before focusing entirely on SSC and the Eye.
Any early predictions about how DST will place itself in the new spreadsheet?
I'm having a dilemma now since I just got exalted with Ashtongue and got the trinket. The three I have to choose from is: DST, TT and the Ashtongue one. I have 297hit, 30,38crit and 1800AP with DST and TT equipped. Worth replacing one for said trinket?
Two things:
1) Actually, I can think of a reason to model Improved Eviscerate, namely Rupture immune mobs. This is another reason some might spec Improved Eviscerate since you'll have to be using Eviscerate to spend those extra combo points. Although, that said, such an addition should be considered a bonus. I wouldn't worry about it until the sheet is finally the way you want it in terms of Rupture as the primary finishing move.
Yes, Eviscerate cycles are something that's on the list as something that might be nice to have someday. However, they're so far down on the list I have no reasonable expectation of ever getting around to them.
Also, while we're on the topic of Imp Evis, I would like to remind people that even if you *are* using Eviscerate as a finisher in PvE, this talent is usually not worth it. The amount of dps you gain from it is point-for-point less than Vile Poisons; hence, it's only those mobs that are both bleed and poison immune where Improved Eviscerate is actually beneficial. Now, there are certainly bosses that this is true of - Hydross, Void Reaver, and Doomwalker come to mind - but on the whole, trading a damage boost that works for 75% of boss fights for one that provides a smaller benefit on the remaining 25% just doesn't make much sense. Therefore, I would attribute the presence of Imp Evis in Combat Swords builds to either a) a desire for increased PvP viability, or b) ignorance. I suspect the 2nd is the more common cause.
2) Speaking of the Crystalforged Trinket, it would be nice if this was added to the sheet. It is on par with some of the other trinkets in the sheet and if you happen to have been unlucky with instance drops, it may be your best option since all it requires is reputation that most raiders have by doing dailies to keep up with raiding costs. It's the only item I'm currently using that isn't modeled. About 30 runs in Black Morass and no Hourglass, every Kara seems to be Oz, and Gruul has yet to even drop a Dragonspine Trophy for my guild and the guild is planning just 5 more Gruul's Lair runs before focusing entirely on SSC and the Eye.
Honestly, this trinket would be pretty far down on the list. Even as a dagger rogue I don't see it scoring above 95 AP or so, which puts it behind everything on the sheet by 15 or more AP with the exception of Kiss of the Spider - which, honestly, given the haste nerf, I will probably be removing from the sheet as well. It's not that it's a terrible trinket, per se, but the fact is that it isn't really in the same league as the trinkets already in the sheet - and there are plenty of trinkets in the list already that are accessible to Kara-level rogues.
However, if people are of the opinion that more low-end gear is necessary as they're finding themselves in mid-Kara without some of the gear on this sheet, I can review the itemization selections again.
Originally Posted by OnTheHissay
Any early predictions about how DST will place itself in the new spreadsheet?
I'm having a dilemma now since I just got exalted with Ashtongue and got the trinket. The three I have to choose from is: DST, TT and the Ashtongue one. I have 297hit, 30,38crit and 1800AP with DST and TT equipped. Worth replacing one for said trinket?
Short answer: wear DST and Ashtongue.
Long answer: read posts 739 and 759.
Yes, Eviscerate cycles are something that's on the list as something that might be nice to have someday. However, they're so far down on the list I have no reasonable expectation of ever getting around to them.
Also, while we're on the topic of Imp Evis, I would like to remind people that even if you *are* using Eviscerate as a finisher in PvE, this talent is usually not worth it. The amount of dps you gain from it is point-for-point less than Vile Poisons; hence, it's only those mobs that are both bleed and poison immune where Improved Eviscerate is actually beneficial. Now, there are certainly bosses that this is true of - Hydross, Void Reaver, and Doomwalker come to mind - but on the whole, trading a damage boost that works for 75% of boss fights for one that provides a smaller benefit on the remaining 25% just doesn't make much sense. Therefore, I would attribute the presence of Imp Evis in Combat Swords builds to either a) a desire for increased PvP viability, or b) ignorance. I suspect the 2nd is the more common cause.
I was a bit surprised by this statement, so I went and did some math:
Untalented, a 5 stack of deadly poison is 75 dps. Each point of vile poisons adds 75*0.04 = 3 dps. (Assuming you've got windfury over instant poison MH, of course) Assuming an average 5 point eviscerate is 1600, including crit, each point of improved eviscerate adds 80 damage to each evis. So for a point of vile poisons to add more dps than a point of improved eviscerate, you'd have to eviscerate less than once every (1600*0.05/x = 75*0.04) 26.6 seconds. This might be the case for daggers, but definitely not for swords.
It's a bit of a moot point anyway, since I can't think of any bosses past Kara that are immune to rupture but not poisons, but I just thought that sounded off. Hopefully I did that math correctly.
I was a bit surprised by this statement, so I went and did some math:
Untalented, a 5 stack of deadly poison is 75 dps. Each point of vile poisons adds 75*0.04 = 3 dps. (Assuming you've got windfury over instant poison MH, of course) Assuming an average 5 point eviscerate is 1600, including crit, each point of improved eviscerate adds 80 damage to each evis. So for a point of vile poisons to add more dps than a point of improved eviscerate, you'd have to eviscerate less than once every (1600*0.05/x = 75*0.04) 26.6 seconds. This might be the case for daggers, but definitely not for swords.
It's a bit of a moot point anyway, since I can't think of any bosses past Kara that are immune to rupture but not poisons, but I just thought that sounded off. Hopefully I did that math correctly.
So, admittedly, last time I did the calcs was, um, before anyone had killed Kael, so it was based more off T4/T5 type itemization, which lowers the value of Improved Eviscerate. Hence, Imp Evis does fair better than I remembered. However, there's a couple points I'd like to add:
The thing to remember about Eviscerate cycles is that they take an extra 10 energy relative to Rupture cycles, meaning that it's hard for a sword rogue without 2/5 T4 to get a cycle shorter than 4s5r - which takes roughly 27 seconds to complete. So, first off, we're totally in the right ballpark for them to be comparable, by your numbers.
Second: I'm pretty sure Supremus is affected by poisons but not rupture. I think there may be others as well, though I don't remember for certain.
Third: the existance of bosses affected by poison but not rupture was only half of my point. The other half is that, as the benefit gained by Vile Poison on bosses affected by poison is at least comparable to the benefit gained by Imp Evis on bosses immune to rupture, in order for the utility to be comparable, there'd need to be at least as many unrupturable bosses as there are poisonable bosses - which is not the case. Hence my opinion that poisons are fairly clearly a superior choice.
...however, the ability to make and use drums can be fairly beneficial; if used every time the cool is up, they provide about a 50 AP benefit in a sustained DPS scenario... to your entire group. This does get expensive after a while, of course, so in practice they tend to be used more selectively; however, it's still a nontrivial bonus in the endgame.
I just picked up blade of savagery and it puts my suggested rotation at 3.4s/5r. Previously I've been doing 4s/5r because the suggested was at 3.5 beforehand so I just rounded up. If I switch to 3s/5r now I'm not gonna have 100% snd uptime, which is clearly bad. So my question is should I just simplify and switch to 5s/5r which shows minimal dps loss but would realistically probably be more dps because it negates human error...or should I switch to something like 3s/4r which isn't even suggested as a optimal rotation (probably for a good reason). Also how does this affect my ashtongue trinket dps value? (which btw I still think isn't valued as high as it should be right now)
Mojo, if you are in for some dedication to do dps, see if you can sustain a 4snd/5r/3snd/5r. But i know from at least myself that i fail at that stuff, especially dynamic cycles. Thats why i nevery really tried hard to make Mutilate/combat work for me, far too much dynamics.
So, admittedly, last time I did the calcs was, um, before anyone had killed Kael, so it was based more off T4/T5 type itemization, which lowers the value of Improved Eviscerate. Hence, Imp Evis does fair better than I remembered. However, there's a couple points I'd like to add:
I talked to a friend who's in plenty of T6 with swords and he claims Imp Evisc scales better when you start getting 1900~ AP.
Mojo, if you are in for some dedication to do dps, see if you can sustain a 4snd/5r/3snd/5r. But i know from at least myself that i fail at that stuff, especially dynamic cycles. Thats why i nevery really tried hard to make Mutilate/combat work for me, far too much dynamics.
Intuitively, such a cycle will be inferior to either 4s/5r or 3s/5r. You can see this by observing the following theorem:
- For any Z > X and any Y, and assuming swords are used, the cycle Zs/Yr has at least as high Slice and Dice uptime as Xs/Yr.
This is pretty easily proven. At worst, to generate a single extra CP, you must spend 40 energy, which will take at most 4 seconds to generate. With 3/3 Imp SnD, each additional CP spent on Slice and Dice increases its duration by 4.35 seconds. Thus, increasing your SnD coefficient increases your Slice uptime by 0.35 seconds per additional CP spent. It is possible that the cycle Xs/Yr already has 100% Slice uptime. In that case, Zs/Yr would also have 100% Slice uptime.
This proven, let's look at the two cycles 4s/5r and 3s/5r. There are two possible cases:
- 3s/5r has 100% Slice uptime, and therefore so does 4s/5r. In this case, both cycles get identical damage contribution from Slice and Dice. However, 4s/5r takes longer to complete, and therefore has lower Rupture uptime and lower Rupture DPS. Thus, running 4s/5r/3s/5r would be strictly inferior to running 3s/5r.
- 3s/5r does not have 100% Slice uptime, and 4s/5r has higher Slice uptime (possibly 100%, but it doesn't matter). In this case, you would lose significant DPS by running 3s/5r instead of 4s/5r. Therefore, running 4s/5r/3s/5r would be strictly inferior to running 4s/5r.
There is almost no case where alternating cycles arbitrarily will achieve higher DPS. I did once model a type of cycle called a "Plus-cycle" where you would alter the coefficient of your finishers based on whether Ruthlessness or Netherblade 4-piece procced. Particularly, I was looking at a "+1s/5r" cycle, where you would always generate exactly 1 CP after Rupturing, and then Slice at either 1 CP or 2 CP (if Ruthlessness procced). However, my models almost always put this type of cycle behind the standard 2s/5r.
I just picked up blade of savagery and it puts my suggested rotation at 3.4s/5r. Previously I've been doing 4s/5r because the suggested was at 3.5 beforehand so I just rounded up. If I switch to 3s/5r now I'm not gonna have 100% snd uptime, which is clearly bad. So my question is should I just simplify and switch to 5s/5r which shows minimal dps loss but would realistically probably be more dps because it negates human error...or should I switch to something like 3s/4r which isn't even suggested as a optimal rotation (probably for a good reason). Also how does this affect my ashtongue trinket dps value? (which btw I still think isn't valued as high as it should be right now)
thanks for any help!
I would do either 4s5r or the weaving cycle that Koaschten mentions. Although 5s5r doesn't cost you a whole lot of dps either, so if you're feeling particularly lazy it does fine as well. I would not recommend 3s4r, though; the sub-5 rupture cycles don't tend to work very well as swords - they're more of a daggers thing.
On the whole, switching to a shorter cycle doesn't change your Ashtongue uptime much; it means it lasts a larger proportion of the cycle when it does proc, but it doesn't proc all the time.
It should be noted that in the current release of the sheet, Ashtongue is being mis-scored slightly; for longer cycles (3s5r and above, basically) it's pretty close, but for the extremely compressed cycles (1s5r swords, 1s3r daggers, and the like) it's off by a fair amount. This is being fixed in the next release.
Originally Posted by koaschten
Doesnt Rupture scale overall better with AP then Eviscerate? At least unless you get some ungodly amount of crit?
*leaves to tortures the forum search*
Rupture scales better with AP, period. Rupture gains .24 damage per AP; Evis gains a base of .15, as modified by crit chance at armor. Assuming a raid buffed crit rate of 50% (which is not totally out of reach but defenitely high-end) and 2000 armor penetration above and beyond sunders from buffs and gear (likewise) on a lightly armored boss (4000 base armor), that only works out to .19 actual damage per AP for evis. To put into perspective what you'd need to get to to have Evis scale better: even if your target had zero armor, your crit rate would need to be over 60% for Evis to scale better. In practice, even with decent armor penetration, mobs still tend to have ~20% mitigation, meaning you'd need 100% crit rate for Evis to scale as well as Rupture.
...and of course, that doesn't even count the fact that Evis costs more energy, such that even if the raw damage of Evis scaled as well as Rupture, the value of the 10 energy difference would scale as well which would *still* give Rupture the edge.
Long story short: Rupture starts out better than Eviscerate, and scales faster. Hence, you should only use Evis if you can't use rupture, regardless of your AP, talent, etc. situation.
10/01/07, 3:00 PM
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