Intuitively, such a cycle will be inferior to either 4s/5r or 3s/5r. You can see this by observing the following theorem:
- For any Z > X and any Y, and assuming swords are used, the cycle Zs/Yr has at least as high Slice and Dice uptime as Xs/Yr.
This is pretty easily proven. At worst, to generate a single extra CP, you must spend 40 energy, which will take at most 4 seconds to generate. With 3/3 Imp SnD, each additional CP spent on Slice and Dice increases its duration by 4.35 seconds. Thus, increasing your SnD coefficient increases your Slice uptime by 0.35 seconds per additional CP spent. It is possible that the cycle Xs/Yr already has 100% Slice uptime. In that case, Zs/Yr would also have 100% Slice uptime.
This proven, let's look at the two cycles 4s/5r and 3s/5r. There are two possible cases:
- 3s/5r has 100% Slice uptime, and therefore so does 4s/5r. In this case, both cycles get identical damage contribution from Slice and Dice. However, 4s/5r takes longer to complete, and therefore has lower Rupture uptime and lower Rupture DPS. Thus, running 4s/5r/3s/5r would be strictly inferior to running 3s/5r.
- 3s/5r does not have 100% Slice uptime, and 4s/5r has higher Slice uptime (possibly 100%, but it doesn't matter). In this case, you would lose significant DPS by running 3s/5r instead of 4s/5r. Therefore, running 4s/5r/3s/5r would be strictly inferior to running 4s/5r.
There is almost no case where alternating cycles arbitrarily will achieve higher DPS. I did once model a type of cycle called a "Plus-cycle" where you would alter the coefficient of your finishers based on whether Ruthlessness or Netherblade 4-piece procced. Particularly, I was looking at a "+1s/5r" cycle, where you would always generate exactly 1 CP after Rupturing, and then Slice at either 1 CP or 2 CP (if Ruthlessness procced). However, my models almost always put this type of cycle behind the standard 2s/5r.
I think you've missed the point of the 3s5r4s5r cycle. The argument is as follows:
3s5r cannot be supported with 100% SnD uptime; hence it is clearly inferior.
4s5r gives 100% SnD uptime, but clips the ends of the SnD uptimes, which costs DPS.
Hence, to realize full DPS, you perform a 4s5r and then get the 3 CPs for the next SnD ready; however, before using them, you let your energy regen a bit for the last few seconds of the existing SnD. Thus, when you launch the 3s (right as the previous 4s is ticking off, ideally; sooner if your energy is about to cap out), you're not starting from 0 energy; you have 50 energy or whatever saved up. This extra energy gives you sufficient time to fire off the 5r and still get up to 4 CPs for the next SnD before the 3s ticks off.
Basically: you use the fact that you can store up energy for a few seconds to weave in 3s5rs amongst your 4s5rs, hence maintaining 100% SnD uptime (which 3s5r cannot do) but with better rupture uptime than 4s5r.
In practice, this is very very hard to do, since cycles are not ideal and you will find that, in practice, the burstiness of Combat Potency, Relentless Strikes, and Ruthlessness procs will leave you with SnD gaps if you try this. If max energy was 200 allowing more room to bank energy, this would be more feasible; however, since max energy is only 100, there's not enough flexibility in this cycle to avoid SnD gaps. Hence, I would recommend 4s5r on the whole, though feel free to try the woven cycle out if it sounds interesting to you.
Honestly, this trinket would be pretty far down on the list. Even as a dagger rogue I don't see it scoring above 95 AP or so, which puts it behind everything on the sheet by 15 or more AP with the exception of Kiss of the Spider - which, honestly, given the haste nerf, I will probably be removing from the sheet as well. It's not that it's a terrible trinket, per se, but the fact is that it isn't really in the same league as the trinkets already in the sheet - and there are plenty of trinkets in the list already that are accessible to Kara-level rogues.
However, if people are of the opinion that more low-end gear is necessary as they're finding themselves in mid-Kara without some of the gear on this sheet, I can review the itemization selections again.
Well, according to the DPS Spreadsheet as a dagger rogue, the Crystalforged Trinket is only about 1.5 dps behind Hourglass and better than the other options available (given that I can't seem to get a DST or Poison Vial to drop), unless I'm missing something obvious. I'm Exalted with all factions, have Abacus as my other Trinket. Is there another accessible trinket I'm missing besides Hourglass?
Well, lets see. If I take my current gear and replace my weapons with the analagous daggers and my spec to the cookie-cutter 15/41/5, here's what I come up with:
Striking to ring is worth 16.76 AP; hence +7 weapon damage from the trinket will be worth 3.5*16.76 = 58.7 AP. The activated ability on Crystalforged is 216 AP with 16.7% uptime, and is thus worth 36 AP. Hence, the total value of the trinket is 94.7
Comparing this to other pre-Kara trinkets:
Darkmoon Card - Crusade: 120
Bloodlust Brooch: 116
Abacus of Violent Odds: 114
Icon of Unyielding Courage: 111
Hourglass of the Unraveler: 110
and, if you happen to have raided significantly pre-expansion:
DFT: 106
So, while it's true that Crystalforged isn't a *bad* trinket, given that it isn't even in the top 5 pre-raid trinkets, I don't feel the need to add it to the sheet.
I discovered a couple socket bonus bugs with some of the gear in your spreadsheet.
Belt of deep shadow when socketed with two shifting nightseyes does not yield a socket bonus.
Nether Shadow tunic with Bright crimson spinal/glinting noble topaz/shifting shadowsong amethyst, no bonus.
Deathmantle shoulderpads with glinting noble topaz/shifting nightseye, no bonus.
My Edgewalker longboots and netherblade helm are both working fine, 2x Glinting noble topaz and Bright living ruby/thundering skyfire respectively. As far as an idiot check goes, i did match up the pretty colors on the sheet with the appropriate colored gems ;]
Also your sheet does not currently seem to account for the "bug" or perhaps nerf to relentless earthstorm diamond. Since the official answer was a "next patch" fix, perhaps it would be best to fix that for the time being or at least add a footnote for people unfortunate enough to not know that its currently broken and not to spend the gold on a large downgrade.
Just a suggestion, it would probably be less confusing for people if instead of optimal hit you labeled that field on the sheet as "Max Socketed Hit Value", or something sexier.
For the last time, the "Socket Bonus?" column does not tell whether you have the proper gems socketed to receive the bonus, rather it tells whether you should socket that piece of gear with the bonus in mind. (i.e. Is the bonus worth it?)
I discovered a couple socket bonus bugs with some of the gear in your spreadsheet.
Belt of deep shadow when socketed with two shifting nightseyes does not yield a socket bonus.
Nether Shadow tunic with Bright crimson spinal/glinting noble topaz/shifting shadowsong amethyst, no bonus.
Deathmantle shoulderpads with glinting noble topaz/shifting nightseye, no bonus.
My Edgewalker longboots and netherblade helm are both working fine, 2x Glinting noble topaz and Bright living ruby/thundering skyfire respectively. As far as an idiot check goes, i did match up the pretty colors on the sheet with the appropriate colored gems ;]
I would refer you to the 2nd entry in the FAQ section of the first post in this thread.
Also your sheet does not currently seem to account for the "bug" or perhaps nerf to relentless earthstorm diamond. Since the official answer was a "next patch" fix, perhaps it would be best to fix that for the time being or at least add a footnote for people unfortunate enough to not know that its currently broken and not to spend the gold on a large downgrade.
The answer to this is "next patch... maybe". To expand upon that a bit:
The nerf to RED has been designated by Blizz as a bug, and it's slated to be fixed in a future patch. Given that 2.2.2 came out today and I would expect 2.3 to be live in a month or two, i don't see any particularly urgent need to change it until they figure out what it's gonna do. Particularly since it's not actually "a large downgrade". Even in it's current, bugged, state, it still is competitive with TSD and better than SSD for the vast majority of people. It's certainly not the best by as much as is indicated in the 0.7.7 sheet, but it's as good as anything right now and will soon be better; as such, there are far stupider things you could do than socket with RED right now; hence, this bug does not seem pressing enough for me to worry about excessively.
I've tried the weaving 4s/5r/3s/5r cycle. It's extremely hard to maintain even with hard focus. It's not even really a matter of practice as you can't control the combat potency proc rate. That said I usually end up having to use an snd way too early to prevent energy loss or end up blowing cps on an evic because I got rupture and snd sitting at 8 seconds. With savagery being .1 speed faster it's going to be even harder to control. I'll likely stick to a 4s/5r cycle and throw in an occasional 3-5point evic based off of lucky potency procs and AR.
I would refer you to the 2nd entry in the FAQ section of the first post in this thread.
The answer to this is "next patch... maybe". To expand upon that a bit:
The nerf to RED has been designated by Blizz as a bug, and it's slated to be fixed in a future patch. Given that 2.2.2 came out today and I would expect 2.3 to be live in a month or two, i don't see any particularly urgent need to change it until they figure out what it's gonna do. Particularly since it's not actually "a large downgrade". Even in it's current, bugged, state, it still is competitive with TSD and better than SSD for the vast majority of people. It's certainly not the best by as much as is indicated in the 0.7.7 sheet, but it's as good as anything right now and will soon be better; as such, there are far stupider things you could do than socket with RED right now; hence, this bug does not seem pressing enough for me to worry about excessively.
First thing - I did find that about 13 pages through the thread, so apologies. Whoever is doing the UI for this spreadsheet could possibly change the column to "Use Socket Bonus" it would probably save posts :]
Haste question - Im confused about the value assigned to the TSD as compared to the other spreadsheet (sorry, my only frame of reference) it seems to be worth significantly less than what the other sheet represents it as, of course I can only estimate that as change in overall dps, but what I see is that while the change in that is dramatic on your sheet you still value passive haste items higher than other items.
One example of what I mean is that the other spreadsheet gives me only a very modest increase using swiftstrike shoulders over deathmantle, while yours is roughly double the dps increase (yes i mean change in rough dps not the numbers next to the item). I guess my question is what differences are there between the passive haste calculations and the TSD, if any, or is it possibly just the proc rate is calculated significantly differently? I understood it to be 1ppm per the other sheet.
Almost forgot. Did you make changes to reduce ppm items/enchants etc as per last patch? I was curious to know what type of hit mongoose took from that lil nerf.
Another very minor thing, perhaps adding the actual values onto the shoulder enchants would be appropriate. I remembered which was aldor and scryer but it may be necessary for some people to research it before filling out thier information.
1) At the moment I'm the only person developing this sheet. If there are people out there that would like to help with it, there's certainly plenty of work to be done. But right now, I'm doing everything myself. So I'll take your recommendation under advisement.
2) My first question with regards to haste issues would be whether they are using the same haste rating values, i.e. whether you are looking at it pre-nerf or post-nerf in both cases
3) This sheet handles almost all proc differently than the other sheet; in particular, in handles them as procs, as opposed to an estimated static difference. What difference this makes in the specific case of TSD, I have no idea.
4) No, the haste/PPM change is not in 0.7.7. It's one of the things I'm working on adding right now; it is also one of the largest changes that needs to be made, which is why it's taking some time.
1) At the moment I'm the only person developing this sheet. If there are people out there that would like to help with it, there's certainly plenty of work to be done. But right now, I'm doing everything myself. So I'll take your recommendation under advisement.
2) My first question with regards to haste issues would be whether they are using the same haste rating values, i.e. whether you are looking at it pre-nerf or post-nerf in both cases
3) This sheet handles almost all proc differently than the other sheet; in particular, in handles them as procs, as opposed to an estimated static difference. What difference this makes in the specific case of TSD, I have no idea.
4) No, the haste/PPM change is not in 0.7.7. It's one of the things I'm working on adding right now; it is also one of the largest changes that needs to be made, which is why it's taking some time.
1) Glad to help, it just seemed more intuitive. Im sure there are probably better solutions as well.
2) I had the toggle on the advanced settings page set to use PTR nerf, so I would assume that the answer for both is yes. That is of course barring some wierd error in the other sheets calculations or item stats perhaps.
3) That was just a shot in the dark really, in case you had run into it before. The descrepancies bother me. Without a reason as to why it makes it difficult to explicitly trust either source.
4) I can see how that is going to be a complete nightmare. Its quite unfortunate because I dont really anticipate it being a massive nerf, but its good to check.
5) Thanks for keeping me entertained at work its incredibly slow today.
However, if people are of the opinion that more low-end gear is necessary as they're finding themselves in mid-Kara without some of the gear on this sheet, I can review the itemization selections again.
I'd like to see the Assassination armor added. I'm in an early SSC/TK guild and despite six months of running Kara, Nightbane has never dropped his chest for me. (We took a long time to kill Mags because we've had a perpetual lack-of-tanks.) I've been using the spreadsheet for several months with the Wastewalker Tunic instead, but it'd be nice to be able to model things exaclty.
I know this isn't the first time someone's asked for the Assassination armor, but consider me another voice.
Also: I'm currently using the WSC and Abacus for my trinkets, and according to the spreadsheet, Romulo's Poison Vial would be a small upgrade over the Abacus. Is this really true if one already meets the hit cap? The Vial would allow me to re-gem some of my gear away from +hit, adding 28 agility, but it's hard to believe that and the Vial's seemingly-weak proc are better than a static 64 AP and haste buff every two minutes. I'm not sure how to work out the mathematics, unfortunately, but it might be worth double-checking in the sheet?
I've considered the Assassination armor a couple of times, but what I arrive at every time I look at it is: there's just not much reason to wear most of the pieces. There's generally at least 2 items in the sheet that are better and can be gotten with comparable effort. This is not to say that there's not some unlucky people that are stuck using it, but I don't think it's worth including on the basis of the less-than-1% case of people who have failed to get all reasonable alternatives.
Regarding RPV: If you are actually going to benefit from the hit (either directly or via regemming), it tends to be worth using. It's true that the proc is not ridiculously powerful, but it's nonnegligble and, more to the point: it just has a lot of hit on it. 35 hit is already worth 90-100 AP, depending on your exact itemization, and when you factor in the proc as well, it tends to cruise past the pre-Kara trinkets with ease.
It should be noted, however, than RPV will suffer a bit of a nerf from the revisions in the next version of the sheet, so it's probably not quite *as* strong as currently reported. So if it's a question of "should I spend 300g regemming for a 30 AP benefit), I might wait until we see what the new numbers look like.
I have a guildie who was asking me about 1s/3r rotation for combat daggers with 2pc NB..
Is this rotation inferior and why so?
I dont like the sound of it =((
I have a guildie who was asking me about 1s/3r rotation for combat daggers with 2pc NB..
Is this rotation inferior and why so?
I dont like the sound of it =((
I point you to post #532 here. Summary is that, yes that would be similar to a longer cycle, the less rupture dps is made up by higher rupture uptime.
EDIT: I also just realized that depending on the fight it might be much better, as it would perform much better in fights with many interuptions.
So I was trying to talk to some rogues tonite and all I got was scoffs and pissed off demeanor when I told them to stop using evis and use rupture.
This was the math he posted:
This is pulled from the WoW forums when all the discussion came out. We'll go with 2500 AP, 30% crit. 30 is right for me....AP is usually a bit higher when you average mongoose procs out. Always assuming we have a battle shout bitch.
Evis
-----
AP Modifier = 2500 * 5 * .03 = 375
Eviscerate = 1045 + 375 = 1420 avg noncrit, no talents
2 piece tier5 bonus: 1420+200 = 1620 (Hellfiller)
Improved Eviscerate + Aggression: 1620 * 1.15 * 1.06 = 1975 avg noncrit before armor mit
Crits: 1975 * (1 + 0.3 crit) = 2568 avg dmg again before armor mit
I had a 2973 on Leo tonight with 5 sunders up. With the AP I had it tells me he has < 20% mit. That puts avg evis dmg for him at 2054 or better.
Rupture
-----------
AP Modifier = 2500 * 0.24 = 600
Rupture = 1000 + 600 = 1600 dmg
w/ Mangle = 2080 dmg - rarely ever in our raids
2054 > 1600. Barely different if you have Mangle. Obviously none of us have Serrated Blades. If Squeep does then yes he should be using Rupture.
He's using 2500 ap as his base, with 30% crit (which is about average for us). We don't have a feral druids mangle on the boss as of late. Also, dont take into account any passive armor penetration. If possible, could someone show me the post with the me math or do the math using those stats for a general boss? "Tidewalker or FLK would be fine"
1) 20% mitigation from armor is only feasible assuming a) a low-armor boss initially, b) Faerie Fire and Curse of Recklessness are both up. Which, admittedly, is true some of the time. However, it is not true all of the time, and in all other circumstances, Eviscerate should be more heavily mitigated.
2) 2500 AP strikes me as awfully low for raid-buffed SSC rogues, and a higher AP will favor rupture.
3) And most importantly, the fact that Eviscerate costs 10 extra energy is totally neglected, and it is this, more than anything, that gives rise to the superiority of Rupture. Yes, a single Evis can do more damage than a single rupture; however, the rupture saves 10 energy that can be used to some other end, such as an additional Sinister Strike every 4 ruptures. Assuming, say, Talon as your MH, a SS with 2500 AP 30% crit a SS does about 1275 unmitigated, or, at 20% mitigation as cited, our 1/4 of a SS adds 255 damage (and 1/4 of a combo point, which further increases the size of the *next* finisher...), which closes the stated gap considerably.
If you'd like to see an alternative analysis of the situation, I would refer you to post 645 where, conveniently, I have already done these calculations.
Well he was using 20% mitigation by a boss, which would put an almost 450 avg dmg difference. With the 10 energy extra, and an avg 1100 ss/4 = 275 dmg which still leaves around 175 dmg left up in the air, in favor of talented Evisc. I would suspect that imp poisons would make up a lot of that on a normal bossfight...
My real question is, can anyone link a post that kinda shows proof of a general boss mitigation/armor in ssc/tk?
Hey people, first of all a big thanks to aldriana for putting such great effort in making and updating this spreadsheet. Second I have some questions regarding hitcap and weaponskill.
I know the hitcap is at 308 with Weapon Expertise but what is the hitcap without Weapon Expertise? and what is the hitcap with Weapon Expertise and human racial?
So from what I've read after the first 5 points of weapon skill it drops in value, does the spreadsheet take this into consideration? And if not, is Belt of One-Hundred Death really worth it compared to Belt of Deep Shadow for a human rogue?
Have looked around for an answear and it's probably around somewhere but I've missed it, so I would be grateful if I got some helps.
Check out the last few pages of weapon skill adjustment thread, sp00n has made a script that calculates your hit cap for different values of weapon skill.
There's also some belt discussion a few pages earlier in this thread, the problem is that while the effects of weapon skill on +hit is now clear, the effects on dodge and crit are still largely unknown but they can't be discounted. Many people lately seem to compare the two belts from the hit rating perspective only.
Okay, i know there was some belt discussion, but it was Alejandro's vs Hundred Deaths. I'd like to ask, Deep Shadow and Hundred Deaths, which one is better? I'm Currently using Girdle of the Deathdealer, which i think, is better than Gronn stitched and treachery. We're now close to getting Vashj down, but at the same time our rogue team is anxiously waiting for deep shadow pattern to drop for the guild. Would be nice if someone laid down some facts bout deep shadow and hundred deaths, thank you in advance.
10/02/07, 5:04 AM
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