First I want to thank you for creating this spread sheet and the the Oo version for those of us without Axcel.
This might sound like a dumb question but I am wondering what my exact rotation should be.
I'm not a numbers cruncher and just got the Oo spread sheet the other night and noticed some minor things I needed to adjust with what equipment I have.
I am now using my BoI instead of ToA that I have been using since the patch to get my hit closer to the cap. I also have a Blood Lust that I'm not using.
I am also considering changing my meta from TSD to RED but I would like to know more about the haste nerf on TSD and the DPS difference before I change it.
My approximate cycle says 2.8s5r and I wanted to know what you suggest my exact or close to exact cycle should be to maxamize my DPS.
I have my 4/5 T5 and since getting it I have not been sure of what it should be and getting your Oo version last night I can see it is different from what I have been doing.
Okay, i know there was some belt discussion, but it was Alejandro's vs Hundred Deaths. I'd like to ask, Deep Shadow and Hundred Deaths, which one is better? I'm Currently using Girdle of the Deathdealer, which i think, is better than Gronn stitched and treachery. We're now close to getting Vashj down, but at the same time our rogue team is anxiously waiting for deep shadow pattern to drop for the guild. Would be nice if someone laid down some facts bout deep shadow and hundred deaths, thank you in advance.
I think the general consensus is: Belt of One-Hundred Deaths > Deep Shadow.
Not by huge margin , but still a bit.
Originally Posted by Dragn
First I want to thank you for creating this spread sheet and the the Oo version for those of us without Axcel.
This might sound like a dumb question but I am wondering what my exact rotation should be.
I'm not a numbers cruncher and just got the Oo spread sheet the other night and noticed some minor things I needed to adjust with what equipment I have.
I am now using my BoI instead of ToA that I have been using since the patch to get my hit closer to the cap. I also have a Blood Lust that I'm not using.
I am also considering changing my meta from TSD to RED but I would like to know more about the haste nerf on TSD and the DPS difference before I change it.
My approximate cycle says 2.8s5r and I wanted to know what you suggest my exact or close to exact cycle should be to maxamize my DPS.
I have my 4/5 T5 and since getting it I have not been sure of what it should be and getting your Oo version last night I can see it is different from what I have been doing.
3s5r.
As for TSD and RED difference. I'd hold off on changing anything until they finish fixing RED.
Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.
I think the general consensus is: Belt of One-Hundred Deaths > Deep Shadow.
Not by huge margin , but still a bit.
3s5r.
As for TSD and RED difference. I'd hold off on changing anything until they finish fixing RED.
I tried TSD in SSC yesterday using Talon/Quickblade, I had WF for some parts of the raid and TSD was performing like utter shit for me.
In 1 hour and 30 minutes I had a total of 10 procs. I'd rather take the 12 agi alone over that crappy procrate.
On a related question: The spreadsheet shows 3,7s5r for me now as the optimal cycle, that means I will have to go with 3 and have some leftover energy?
On a related question: The spreadsheet shows 3,7s5r for me now as the optimal cycle, that means I will have to go with 3 and have some leftover energy?
Uhm no, going with 3snd will have you some time with no snd up, 4 snd will have you waste energy (i think). And the general consensus on that topic is that you could directly go to 5/5 if i recall correctly as the difference isnt all THAT big.
I didn't see it mentioned in the first few pages, or near the end, but does the armor value on the Advanced Settings tab reflect the targets actual armor value (i.e.: post sunder/ff/CoR), or it's unbuffed value? I'm assuming it's the actual value since there's no place to specify FF/CoR/Sunders.
I tried TSD in SSC yesterday using Talon/Quickblade, I had WF for some parts of the raid and TSD was performing like utter shit for me.
In 1 hour and 30 minutes I had a total of 10 procs. I'd rather take the 12 agi alone over that crappy procrate.
On a related question: The spreadsheet shows 3,7s5r for me now as the optimal cycle, that means I will have to go with 3 and have some leftover energy?
I know the TSD has a bad proc rate, but that is really bad and I think your data is a little off. I haven't logged any of our recent raids, but on the 9.27 i had 49 procs in 2hours and 10 minutes. I would really go back and check that information again.
Looked at that just a moment ago, and that doesnt show the 30% mitigation on a boss that aldriana posted in post 645. You posted 30%, which on most bosses that are not high-armor, you're looking at around 25% with 5sa (which ever raid will have just about). I also noticed, on the numbers based were not the avg Eviscerate base dmg, but the low end.
I'm going to copy and paste Aldriana's previous information:
A 5 point eviscerate does 1045 + .15*AP raw damage; with the aforementioned 3k AP, this works out to 1495 damage. 2/5 will raise this to 1695. With 3/3 Imp Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression (which is sort of a rare talent spec, but we'll go with it), this is increased by a further 21% to 2051 damage. Based on the crit rate in the sheet, for me, 32.6% of those eviscerates will crit; hence, total damage from the eviscerate is 2720 damage. This is, however, mitigated by armor, WAIT. Most of the armor bosses we face have around 6200 armor (37% mitigation), but if you include 5SA, as the poster does, that lowers the armor to 3600 or 25.5% mitigation, not nearly the 30.5% you posted previously. That would bring the avg dmg up to 2039
**Bold items were "fixed" by me to include the avg. evisc base dmg, instead of only the low-end as well as the proper armor mitigation 6200 (37%) - 2600 for 5SA which almost all raids have which comes to 3600 armor for most bosses (25.5%, not 30%).
True, you would have to add the 271dmg of the avg SS's back in (See post #645 if anyone doesnt follow), but even then, rupture, on avg of an unmangled target, would only do, including the SS dmg, 1720 + 271 = 1991 (which would possibly be higher since less armor for the SS to be mitigated by).
I do this not to prove anyone wrong, rather to show how close evisc CAN BE, and if stacked with enough armor pen, raids buffs (CoR and imp FF), I think it comes out to more dmg tbh. Looking at it now, the difference is 48 Dmg on avg in favor of Eviscerate. The problem is, you are losing vile poisons to gain the imp eviscerate dmg and calculating in 2/5 T5 to help this dmg out. So the 10 more energy you have to spend for 48dmg is amazingly un-worth it, not to mention the difference in your poisons.
Also, if anyone sees fallacies or incorrect math, please tell me, I freaking hate when I mess stuff like that up.
So from what I've read after the first 5 points of weapon skill it drops in value, does the spreadsheet take this into consideration? And if not, is Belt of One-Hundred Death really worth it compared to Belt of Deep Shadow for a human rogue?
The first 5 points of Weapon Skill are indeed more valuable than the later ones; this subtlety is not included in the sheet (and intentionally so). For purposes of this sheet, weapon skill is modeled according to our best guess on how it works for weapon skill 355 and higher. Hence, while the numbers in the sheet for weapon skill items might be incorrect if you don't have any +weapon skill from racials, gear, and talents, it is correct in most other cases. In particular, Belt of One Hundred deaths is correctly modeled for a human rogue so, according to the best information we have available at this time, One-Hundred Deaths is slightly better than Deep Shadow. It's not a huge difference, but it is better.
Originally Posted by Dragn
My approximate cycle says 2.8s5r and I wanted to know what you suggest my exact or close to exact cycle should be to maxamize my DPS.
There's a brief discussion of this in the FAQ on the first page. Stated briefly: for Xs5r cycles, you should use the next SnD larger than the number provided. Hence 2.8s5r means you should actually use 3s5r.
Originally Posted by Grunge
As for TSD and RED difference. I'd hold off on changing anything until they finish fixing RED.
As far as I know, RED is now fixed. I haven't tested it myself, but the info on the RED thread seems to indicate it's now working for white attacks, and is doing so in a way that's consistent with what is in this sheet.
Originally Posted by evl
On a related question: The spreadsheet shows 3,7s5r for me now as the optimal cycle, that means I will have to go with 3 and have some leftover energy?
Again, next larger SnD -> 4s5r.
Originally Posted by PessimiStick
I didn't see it mentioned in the first few pages, or near the end, but does the armor value on the Advanced Settings tab reflect the targets actual armor value (i.e.: post sunder/ff/CoR), or it's unbuffed value? I'm assuming it's the actual value since there's no place to specify FF/CoR/Sunders.
It's the actual value including debuffs... for the moment. I'm working on adding in places to enter the debuffs in the next version, at which point it will become the undebuffed value.
Looked at that just a moment ago, and that doesnt show the 30% mitigation on a boss that aldriana posted in post 645. You posted 30%, which on most bosses that are not high-armor, you're looking at around 25% with 5sa (which ever raid will have just about). I also noticed, on the numbers based were not the avg Eviscerate base dmg, but the low end.
I'm going to copy and paste Aldriana's previous information:
A 5 point eviscerate does 1045 + .15*AP raw damage; with the aforementioned 3k AP, this works out to 1495 damage. 2/5 will raise this to 1695. With 3/3 Imp Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression (which is sort of a rare talent spec, but we'll go with it), this is increased by a further 21% to 2051 damage. Based on the crit rate in the sheet, for me, 32.6% of those eviscerates will crit; hence, total damage from the eviscerate is 2720 damage. This is, however, mitigated by armor, WAIT. Most of the armor bosses we face have around 6200 armor (37% mitigation), but if you include 5SA, as the poster does, that lowers the armor to 3600 or 25.5% mitigation, not nearly the 30.5% you posted previously. That would bring the avg dmg up to 2039
**Bold items were "fixed" by me to include the avg. evisc base dmg, instead of only the low-end as well as the proper armor mitigation 6200 (37%) - 2600 for 5SA which almost all raids have which comes to 3600 armor for most bosses (25.5%, not 30%).
True, you would have to add the 271dmg of the avg SS's back in (See post #645 if anyone doesnt follow), but even then, rupture, on avg of an unmangled target, would only do, including the SS dmg, 1720 + 271 = 1991 (which would possibly be higher since less armor for the SS to be mitigated by).
I do this not to prove anyone wrong, rather to show how close evisc CAN BE, and if stacked with enough armor pen, raids buffs (CoR and imp FF), I think it comes out to more dmg tbh. Looking at it now, the difference is 48 Dmg on avg in favor of Eviscerate. The problem is, you are losing vile poisons to gain the imp eviscerate dmg and calculating in 2/5 T5 to help this dmg out. So the 10 more energy you have to spend for 48dmg is amazingly un-worth it, not to mention the difference in your poisons.
Also, if anyone sees fallacies or incorrect math, please tell me, I freaking hate when I mess stuff like that up.
1) I'm pretty sure I worked it out and Eviscerate's average damage is, in fact, 985. I'll doublecheck it when I get home tonight.
2) The only place where "most" bosses have 6200 armor is Hyjal, and, admittedly, for these low-armor bosses it might indeed make sense to use Eviscerate... if you happen to be specced for it, *and* have 2/5 T5, *and* have no feral druid in your raid. However, the majority of bosses in SSC/TK/BT have 7700 armor, which, post-sunders and faerie fire, is 4600 armor, which works out to 30.3% mitigation. Even with CoR (which is not always available) these bosses only make it down to 26.5%
3) As a ballpark estimate on the poison issue:
Since we're assuming 2/5 T5, I'm going to say it's more likely than not that the 2/5 T4 will not be present as well. There will certainly be some people with both, but most likely more that do not. Hence, the optimal eviscerate cycle is something on the order of 4s5e, which takes roughly 26 seconds to complete. In this 26 seconds, the 3 points in vile poisons that a rupturing rogue will have in place if ImpEvis will contribute 9 dps, or a total of 234 additional poison damage, which blows away whatever benefit Eviscerate might have possessed.
1) I'm pretty sure I worked it out and Eviscerate's average damage is, in fact, 985. I'll doublecheck it when I get home tonight.
2) The only place where "most" bosses have 6200 armor is Hyjal, and, admittedly, for these low-armor bosses it might indeed make sense to use Eviscerate... if you happen to be specced for it, *and* have 2/5 T5, *and* have no feral druid in your raid. However, the majority of bosses in SSC/TK/BT have 7700 armor, which, post-sunders and faerie fire, is 4600 armor, which works out to 30.3% mitigation. Even with CoR (which is not always available) these bosses only make it down to 26.5%
3) As a ballpark estimate on the poison issue:
Since we're assuming 2/5 T5, I'm going to say it's more likely than not that the 2/5 T4 will not be present as well. There will certainly be some people with both, but most likely more that do not. Hence, the optimal eviscerate cycle is something on the order of 4s5e, which takes roughly 26 seconds to complete. In this 26 seconds, the 3 points in vile poisons that a rupturing rogue will have in place if ImpEvis will contribute 9 dps, or a total of 234 additional poison damage, which blows away whatever benefit Eviscerate might have possessed.
1) I looked at wowhead, it showed 985-1105 as the range, it may be wrong, or I might have misread it.
2) I just noticed that was the case, thinking I saw more 6200 than 7700 mobs. Good to know, that just helps my case, as I'm pro vile poisons/rupture. Also, I completely agree that having imp evis, agression, 2/5 t4 AND 2/5 T5 seems most illogical to gain, at most 48dmg per finisher on avg. Thats why I'm trying to get my math right, I want to be able to show these idiots what they are doing is wrong, on the most basic mathematical level.
"Sharpening Stones - +12 dmg and 1.22% crit on every hit. Royal post your average hit, I haven't used a mod to calculate that since like Huhuran. Figure out the % dmg increase here."
Looking at both spreadsheets, sharpening stones are a good 40-60dps decrease in a buffed raid over Instant MH/Deadly OH. I was wondering why? What math to back this up? I know it seems trivial if the spreadsheet says it, the math's there, right? But I'd like to know the math so I can better understand...if its possible :\
Well, this sheet doesn't model Sharpening Stones at all, under the assumption that they're inferior to poison. I confess I haven't actually worked through the math recently, but I'm reasonably confident in their inferiority.
Rough estimate: Instant Poison, untalented, adds an average of 34 damage per hit to your attacks. Sharpening stones add 12, plus 1.22% crit, mitigated by armor. Assuming, say, 20% mitigation, your individual attacks would need to be hitting for roughly 2500 damage noncrit in order for the stone to do more. Which, I think, it's safe to say that none of us are quite their yet.
Well, this sheet doesn't model Sharpening Stones at all, under the assumption that they're inferior to poison. I confess I haven't actually worked through the math recently, but I'm reasonably confident in their inferiority.
Rough estimate: Instant Poison, untalented, adds an average of 34 damage per hit to your attacks. Sharpening stones add 12, plus 1.22% crit, mitigated by armor. Assuming, say, 20% mitigation, your individual attacks would need to be hitting for roughly 2500 damage noncrit in order for the stone to do more. Which, I think, it's safe to say that none of us are quite their yet.
How hard is it to calc what the 12topend to each wep (assuming no Windlawl), would do on your specials, like SS, which is purely based on wep dmg. I'm just wondering how close it would come to poisons...but again, its mitigated by armor, which will reduce its effectiveness a lot.
How hard is it to calc what the 12topend to each wep (assuming no Windlawl), would do on your specials, like SS, which is purely based on wep dmg. I'm just wondering how close it would come to poisons...but again, its mitigated by armor, which will reduce its effectiveness a lot.
Wouldn't that be the same as 6x the +2 damage ring? The cheap way to calculate it would be to put your equipment in the spreadsheet; take 6x the ring enchant and add 1.22 the value of one point in Malice. By just adding (or subtracting) these 2 items/talents and multiplying and adding, you should have the answer specific to your build and equipment.
How hard is it to calc what the 12topend to each wep (assuming no Windlawl), would do on your specials, like SS, which is purely based on wep dmg. I'm just wondering how close it would come to poisons...but again, its mitigated by armor, which will reduce its effectiveness a lot.
According to my modeling for my own gear and talents, Deadly Poison is worth about 73 DPS, while an Adamantite Sharpening Stone on the offhand is worth about 13. Main hand Windfury is worth about 85, while a main hand Adamantite Sharpening Stone is worth about 16.
Or you do the low-tech approach and modify a weapon to gain 12 top end and the crit rating. Just to see how it changes your dps without modified weapon and poison compared to the not modified weapon with poison
Ah, don't forget that since you're using this sharpening stone on your offhand, its benefits are reduced by the offhand damage penalty as well (well, the crit% isn't, but the +12 dmg won't flesh out entirely).
I don't think anyone could seriously consider using one on the mainhand over windfury . . . . an extra attack every 5 white hits, even without the +atk bonus, far outstrips a +12 enchant on mainhand, unless you're using a VERY low damage range weapon, which would be outside the scope of this sheet.
Any early predictions on how the upgraded version of Talon of Azshara plays out against the Blade of Infamy? I can't say I'm overly excited about loosing hit.
Well, this sheet doesn't model Sharpening Stones at all, under the assumption that they're inferior to poison. I confess I haven't actually worked through the math recently, but I'm reasonably confident in their inferiority.
Rough estimate: Instant Poison, untalented, adds an average of 34 damage per hit to your attacks. Sharpening stones add 12, plus 1.22% crit, mitigated by armor. Assuming, say, 20% mitigation, your individual attacks would need to be hitting for roughly 2500 damage noncrit in order for the stone to do more. Which, I think, it's safe to say that none of us are quite their yet.
Hmm, slightly bogus calculation there. A sharpening stone on your offhand increases crit rate for your main hand, off hand, specials and even your poisons, so it's not the individual attack damage that matters.
What you actually mean is that for the stone to do more, you need to be doing 2500 damage (from all sources) per offhand hit. Now, with a 1.4 speed offhand, S'n'D, plus other haste buffs, yoru offhand will hit something like once per second, which makes the maths convenient.
Thus, the tipping point where a sharpening stone becomes better than IP on your offhand is at around 2500 DPS. Not there for any but the top 1 or 2 rogues worldwide, but with Sunwell gear it's actually a possiblity.
Actually, unless something is bugged with Adamantite Sharpening stones, they (sharpening stones in general) haven't affected anything other than the hand they're applied to since ... 1.8? or something like that.
Any early predictions on how the upgraded version of Talon of Azshara plays out against the Blade of Infamy? I can't say I'm overly excited about loosing hit.
You do realize there's a spreadsheet linked in the first post of this thread that answers that question, right? 0.7.7 includes the upgraded stats of the Talon of Azshara.
Hmm, slightly bogus calculation there. A sharpening stone on your offhand increases crit rate for your main hand, off hand, specials and even your poisons, so it's not the individual attack damage that matters.
What you actually mean is that for the stone to do more, you need to be doing 2500 damage (from all sources) per offhand hit. Now, with a 1.4 speed offhand, S'n'D, plus other haste buffs, yoru offhand will hit something like once per second, which makes the maths convenient.
Thus, the tipping point where a sharpening stone becomes better than IP on your offhand is at around 2500 DPS. Not there for any but the top 1 or 2 rogues worldwide, but with Sunwell gear it's actually a possiblity.
I was hoping no one would notice that, because I was trying to finesse past that point. Yes, it's true, a single damage stone affects crit on both hands. However, it's also true that a single crit stone only gives .61% crit, not 1.22%; that calculation was based on having crit stones on both weapons and then looking at the damage from both, which is, of course, somewhat of a bogus way of doing it due to the fact that the stone is more valuable OH than it is MH. However, in terms of approximating the value, it seemed to me to be in the right ballpark.
If you're going to do the approximation that you're working off of, you need to work off .61% crit instead, which doubles the DPS requirement to 5k. Not that I think that's a particularly accurate way of measuring it either.
In terms of a better approximation, a little spreadsheet hacking reveals a gear/buff combination that results in 2230 buffed DPS (or so), yet MH Weapon Stone only adds 27 DPS, and OH 21. Compare to, for instance, OH Deadly Poison that does 84 DPS. Or MH WF which does, um, a lot.
Point being: I don't see stones being useful in the forseeable future.
Heh, OK. Well, except on poison-immune bosses, of course. There are one or two dagger rogues in my group that persistently use sharpening stones instead of poisons - will have to pass the figures on to them. Though in fairness I think it's usually because they put it on for poison-immune stuff and then don't bother to swap back.
Hi Ald. I'm currently in the process of beating the crap out of a servant in the Blasted Lands to test the proc rate of the Twin Blades of Azzinoth. I'll upload my combat log when I'm done for you and edit this post with a link. One thing I can tell you right off the bat is that there is no internal cooldown on the haste proc.
I'm testing for about 60 minutes with no passive haste (except for mongoose speed increase when it procs) and no dragonspine trophy, just autoattack with no DPS cycle. If you want me to take another log with my usual 3s/5r cycle, I can. Just let me know what you need.
10/04/07, 8:29 AM
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