Citrus

If I knew of a 30 minute fight against a 73 boss where I could sit and DPS the entire time I would WWS it. :/

 

kennfebruary

Factor in the duration, shiv rotation duration is 40 second longer than SS rotation (350 second vs 310 second).

Shiv rotation (350 sec):
Shiv = 275dps
Envenom = 150dps
Deadly poison = 72dps
White = 951dps
(and 3x rupture, 1 SS, 1 garrote)

SS rotation (310sec):
SS = 372dps
Rupture = 80dps
Deadly = 61dps
White = 946dps
(1 garrote)
_____________
Shiv + Envenom = 425dps
SS + rupture = 452dps

about 6% difference, while ignoring 10dps from deadly poison, and other variance.

(Did the math after I just woke up, please correct me if I'm wrong)

 

Tosa

edit: nevermind

Hold shift for focused movement.

 

Jordanish

I am at the point where I have to choose between 4pc DM or keeping 2pc NB..
I have heard a lot of different opinions.
The spreadsheet does show a DPS increase with 4pc t5, but i was just curious as to how confident you are with how it has been modeled and everyone elses opinion on t5 4pc vs t4 2 pc..
thanks for any and all help.

edit: spelling

 

• Aldriana

As a sword rogue, 2/5 T4 doesn't actually do a whole lot. A lot of people like it because it makes life easier, but in terms of actual damage output it just doesn't do much. Hence, while 4/5 T5 is somewhat overvalued in the current version, I'd be willing to bet a fair amount of money that you'll see a damage increase by going to 4/5 T5.

In other news:

I ground the Warglaive data this morning, and man, this is a tough cookie to crack.

In the initial data set, there were 5265 attacks, and 119 procs (there was a bug in my program which generated the above numbers; hence the 119 number is correct). This means that, if it's a fixed-percent proc, we can say with 95% confidence that the true proc rate is between 1.86% and 2.66%. Grinding through all the haste effects, we find that there would be an expected 156 procs of a 1 PPM effect in a data set this size; Hence, if it's a PPM, it's somewhere around .75 PPM

In the SnD/Rupture data, there are 3393 attacks and 71 procs. This means that, if it's a fixed-percent proc, we can say with 95% confidence that the true proc rate is between 1.61% and 2.57%. Grinding through the haste effects + SnD, we find that a 1 PPM effect would expect to go off about 106 times in a data set this size; hence, if it's a PPM, it's somewhere around .67 PPM

So, from this data, we can say: the proc rate is somewhere in the 1.8%-2.6% range, or it's a PPM effect around .67-.75 PPM.

In the SS-only data, there were 9 procs in 298 swings; hence, the proc rate is somewhere between 1.08% and 4.96% with 95% confidence. This includes both the fixed-% range (1.8-2.6), and the PPM range (3.1-3.5) - so we can't really say much.

Long story short: need more data. I suspect the SS-Only testing is gonna be the best way to pin this down, but it's gonna take a really big (like, several hours) data set to tell the difference, I'm afraid. Unless people are feeling really ambitious with the testing, we may have to just punt on it and take our best guess.... if they're this hard to tell apart, it probably won't be *too* inaccurate to just pick one and go with it.

 

winkiller

I guess you never tried converting the spreadsheet to some kind of online usable form, right?
I kind of hate to download and re-input stats, in the latest versions some of my crappy equipment parts aren't even in anymore :P (Hello, Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight...)

But I got an idea already, might be worth a try.. *goes to rethink*

 

• Aldriana

1) Toss that Stealther's Helm and start using Helm of the Claw. Trust me.

2) I've thought about writing this in an actual programming language such that it could be hosted online (or whatever). It's just that doing so is a not inconsiderable amount of work and I can't say I feel totally motivated to spend that time when the spreadsheet a) is already written and b) works just fine.

 

Mendayen

Is there a way to input gear ourselves? My next upgrade source will likely be Kara items and right now I'm not sure whether certain items are worth a loss/gain of some combination of crit/hit/ap.

 

koaschten

Just go for -> format -> sheet -> then unhide the armors sheet and just replace gear you dont need at the moment. Yes its dirty, but efficient

 

CamelToad

Forgive me if this has been posted before. I've read several pages of this thread, and haven't seen anything similar. I downloaded version 0.7.7 of the Gear spreadsheet today, and I found some odd behavior when selecting talents.

I've used the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet quite extensively to fine-tune my gear and build, and was a little surprised to find that as 19/42/0 combat swords rogue, I would get more DPS out of 1/5 Lethality and 4/5 Imp Poisons rather than a full 5/5 Lethality. I like the Imp Poisons talent for PvP and Arenas, and the fact that it would also increase my sustained DPS was great. However, selecting this combination of talents on the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet caused my optimal hit rating to skyrocket from 261 to 337.

Am I doing something wrong, or is this talent being incorrectly used in the spreadsheet? I fail to see how less critical strike damage bonus would affect optimal hit in such a drastic manner.

Thanks in advance,
Camel

 

• Aldriana

From the FAQ in the first post of this thread:

"Q: What does "Optimal Hit" mean?
A: Optimal Hit reflects the amount of hit rating if you socketed and enchanted your current gear optimally. For exactly what is considered to be optimal for you, consult the middle gear column. Optimal Hit *doesn't* have anything to do with the hit cap - is just an indication of how much hit you'd have if you socketed according to the recommendations in the middle column. This is primarily intended as a warning mechanism, as, in general, "optimal" involves socketing stuff with a whole lot of +8 hit gems, which will frequently put you over the hit cap - the Optimal Hit number is designed to warn you about this so you know not to socket so overwhelmingly with hit."

So, what's happening is: with lethality, agi is better than hit for you, so it's recommending socketing most things with +agi; as such, the total hit in the optimal socketing of your gear is 261. If you remove a point from Lethality and put it in Improved Poisons, this lowers the value of the crit you get from agility, such that hit becomes a better stat and it becomes better to socket all your gear with +hit, causing the total hit on the optimal socketing of your gear to skyrocket.

I would be a little cautious about taking Imp Poisons over Lethality, since a) not all mobs are poisonable, but Lethality works on everything, and b) if you have access to Windfury on a somewhat regular basis, Imp Poisons contributes (effectively) no DPS at all (although Vile Poisons still gives a modest increase).

 

CamelToad

Thanks very much for the clarification. I read the initial post with the FAQ, but didn't realize that the 4 points in Lethality changed the optimal socketing so significantly.

I understand that from a pure PvE standpoint, Lethality will win out when I'm fully raid buffed. However, since I'm in a small guild, I'm not likely to do much outside of 10 man raiding. I chose Imp Poisons primarily for Arenas to stack Wound Poison faster, and Lethality has lost some of its effectiveness to resilience.

 

uhohzombies

I have to admit, the thought of sitting in my chair for several hours hitting sinister strike in the Blasted Lands isn't too appealing. One thing I can attest to is the proc rate is obscene. The proc rate "feels"(non-scientific hehe) to be on par with the DST pre-nerf and given that it gives 450 haste rating as opposed to 325 and has no internal cooldown, it would be safe to say that it is as powerful, if not more so, as a pre-nerf DST.

By the way, I forgot to mention that I accidentally left the DST in for the SnD testing. Could that have tainted the data in any way? If so, I can redo that test without any other haste coming into play.

 

• Aldriana

It will skew the numbers a bit, but now that I know it's there I can correct for it. I'll rerun the numbers and get back to you.

Actually, though, at this point my program is getting sophisticated enough that I can probably glean some information from less controlled testing. If you want to just combatlog an entire night of raiding and send it to me, I'll see if I can work some magic on it.

Edit: Updated numbers for the SnD Test: A 1 PPM enchant would be expected to fire about 102 times; hence the measured proc rate is more like .7 PPM rather than .67 PPM.

Additional note: 95% confidence interval on procs of a 1 PPM enchant would be 83 to 121 procs; hence 71 procs is most likely not a 1 PPM effect.

Additional additional note: if you're going to provide data from an actual raid, the one thing that will mess me up is if you have multiple haste effects of the same name; hence, for best data, if you're going to use DST, it would be helpful if you could refrain from using Haste Pots.

 

uhohzombies

Okay, we're clearing SSC out tonight so I'll log the raid and upload it for you. I won't use haste pots either. I'll edit this post with the log later tonight.

edit: I fail at logging. I'm not even going to say what happened, sufficed to say that I have downs. I'll have to log Hyjal tomorrow and upload that.

 

Pips

I'm a combat dagger rogue with 2/4 T4, and I use a 1s/3s/5r cycle at the moment because I have found this very easy to work with. (I tried 1s/3r and 5s/4r/3s last Morogrim tries, some of which were maintainable and some weren't, but I'm still waiting for the webstats upload on that.)

At the moment, I have the 2 points I need to spend to get Lethality in Murder (aproximate cycle: 5s/4.8r/3s). The spreadsheet tells me Murder beats Ruthlessness by about 15 DPS, and most bosses in SSC and TK are Murderable. Most combat dagger rogues however seem to prefer Ruthlessness. If I swap Murder with Ruthlessness the aproximate cycle becomes 5s/5r/3s.

I'm kinda wondering why the spreadsheet tells me to use Murder over Ruthlessness while most rogues seem to agree Ruthlessness is better.

 

• Aldriana

Most rogues tend to agree that Ruthlessness is better purely because Murder doesn't apply to all enemies. I don't think anyone really questions the fact that Murder is superior to Ruthlessness on those mobs that are affected by it; however, since not all mobs are, people tend to prefer the less powerful but always applicable Ruthlessness. In SSC/TK, for instance, while many of the bosses are affected by Murder, there are any number of important adversaries that are not (Hydross, Void Reaver, Al'ar, Vashj's elementals, Kael's weapons, possibly Leotheras in demon form (although I'd have to check that), and so on.

On the whole, though, I agree that in SSC/TK, Murder is likely more worthwhile. However, as one moves into the T6 instances, the points in Ruthlessness will become superior.

 

Lukon

I found Coup de Grace quite powerful. There were times when I would get 6-8 free finishers in a row; it felt like a mini-AR. However it does take a fair amount of concentration to use optimally. You have to be careful to avoid energy overflow, especially with lag. If you are comfortable mixing and matching cycles on the fly, I recommend it. But keep in mind that there is an inevitable loss of game awareness in getting the most out of it.

 

roq

Are you really having trouble with 1s/3r. I love the cycle, and i am so glad that it was introduced to me. The only problem is sometimes i turn it to 2s/3r because i get a ruthlessness proc but for the most part... it works REALLY well.

 

enno

I'm wondering for the Kael fight..
We rogues can get 2 weapons, the sword and the dagger. What would be the best weaponchoice for us there? Normaly I wield Merciless Gladiator's Slicer (MH) + Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade (OH).
Wielding 2 legendaries with 122 dps looks great at first sight but being swordspec I fear I would be best off with the Warp Slicer (MH) and my normal arena S2 offhand.

So what would be best? I tried inputting the legendaries into the spreadsheet but when adding the weaps it seems to work but when I change it's name I get a divide by 0 error so I'm guessing I'm screwing it up somewhere.

So my question.. what would be best?
1) Warp Slicer (MH) + Infinity Blade (OH)
2) Warp Slicer (MH) + Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade (OH)
3) some other combo

My thoughts:
1) 2 legendaries can't be bad right? No OH swordprocs though
2) Legendary sword with best swordspec procs due to fast OH
3) seriously doubt any other combo can be better

 

◊ Shaker

When added, I see quickblade as being around 500 AEP for my gear, and Infinity blade being roughly 620. Given that this will help stack the debuff quicker and allow you to shiv off mind controls, it's probably a very solid option.

 

elegy

The dagger is too slow and not a sword. I personally only use the legendary sword and the merciless offhand. You are only gaining about 15DPS raw from the off-hand, but you might lose more from losing sword spec and the Combat Potency procs.

 

• tsigo

Slicer mainhand, Blade offhand, regardless of spec. Sinister Strikes from the sword are always ridiculous, and the proc from the dagger is useful throughout the fight.

 

• Aldriana

I admit that I haven't done any in-depth analysis on this, but my off-the-cuff estimate is as follows:

Infinity Blade is a 122 DPS, 2.0 speed weapon.
Quickblade is a 97 DPS, 1.5 speed weapon.

As a rule of thumb, each .1 OH speed is worth about 10 DPS. Hence, Infinity Blade is as good as a 72 dps 1.5 speed weapon. Infinity Blade is also not a sword, and while it's stat mods are somewhat superior, it's not nearly enough to make up the difference. Hence, the only reason to use Infinity Blade would be for the proc.

However, 1 person can keep the debuff up on the boss with east, so if, for instance, the MT is tanking with Infinity Blade, the proc does nothing.

Hence, what I usually do is run Infinity Blade MH, Quickblade OH, and do most of the fight like that. However, I make a point to pick up an Infinity Blade as well, and I have a macro to de-equip my main hand and equip Infinity Blade in OH so I can go Shiv people should the tanks need help with that.

 

koaschten

Thats exactly the point, you dont offhand the dagger for the dps or whatever, its for the encounter elements, keeping the debuffs up, dispelling mindcontrol etc.