That's sort of what we're trying to do; the problem is, to get haste effects, one needs to use Combo-point generating moves, and the extra MH attacks muddy the data enough that the difference is very small.

Although, now that I think about it: this effect could be minimized by using shiv instead of Sinister Strike. A half an hour with SnD up using Shiv instead of SS might actually tell us what's going on.

My wow webstats for last Sunday are finally up! I only used backstab, S&D & Rupture (and 1 random special attack so I wouldn't mix up which log belongs with which cycle):

10-minute try with 1s/2s/5r: 899 dps
5-minute try with 1s/3r: 936 dps

I don't think the length of the fight matters much, as I didn't use AR and BF.

Defenitely speccing Ruthlessness now

I've tried to read every post to see if this has been discussed however I have not seen the topic.

The BT rogue exalted trinket combined with a decent amount of passive ArP with the off chance to self buff with the WsC and sitting at 20% hit after talents, is it worth having the BT exalted trinket? Adding another question, has anyone used the Raid Boss ac chart and teh ArP dmg boost considered with a certain crit rate and ArP level could 2-pc Tier 5 evis bonus finally bring evis to a decent finisher?

I feel it is easy to keep the buff up and my thought was that with the ArP dropping the boss armor the potential crits on both white and yellow attacks should happen that much for and should hit harder when the WsC procs. I was not ever having issues with keeping SnD up nor using rupture in a timely fashion to keep the debuff constantly up. My WWS reports will go up later today allowing me to compare from previous weeks but I was wondering if others may of already invested the time on this topic. Thanks

*Edit current self buffed ArP is 1425

Its always worth having the BT exhalted trinket for a rogue. You can twist and turn it as you like, it will be always around the top5 if not even top3 in your trinket selection. Taken from mind its a 4%+ crit trinket if you average it out.

On the Rupture part, i doubt unless Blizzard changes anything with the scaling values, Ruptures DPE will always be bettern than Eviscerate.

thank you for your post. To provide a little more background in terms of trinkets, I have had poor luck in getting them and only acquired WsC while raiding BC. I was using DFT and WsC prior to the exalted trinket and replaced the DFT with the Ashtongue. My thinking was that the WsC ArP stacking with my passive was far more powerful than 56 ap and the ability to keep the ashtongue buff up provided a good synergy with the ArP.

The reason that your question isn't directly answered in the thread is because it's answered in the spreadsheet - download it, put in your gear, and I almost gaurantee you that it'll recommend using the DST and the Ashtongue trinket, dumping the WSC.

Hey ald in your spreeadsheet i see shadow-walker being the best belt even with the haste nerf, and belt of deep shadow being better than don'alejandro that seems very weird to me, is that correct? or i just screwed up?

Except his alternative is DFT, not DST. So it will recommend Ashtongue and WSC, which are the 2nd and 4th best trinkets in the game for most BT-level rogues. If you could get a DST (or Madness of the Betrayer) that would replace WSC; but Ashtongue is defenitely worth using.

Doh. You'd think (having been using my DFT for far too long - replaced with DST just last week in fact!!!) that I'd have caught that. My apologies. Of course, the point stands that his question would have been answered by the sheet. ;P

Metric, if you need a hand later /w me in-game. I don't have your sweet swords (much envy), but I can provide moral support or an additional blind or gouge now and then so you can heal.

Yes, a shiv + SnD only run would help. For added benefit, wear as much passive haste as you have handy.

Surprising but not impossible, if you have sort of an odd gear setup. Or it may be a bug. Either way, I'm not going to worry about it too much since a new version of the sheet will be coming out by the end of this weekend (and hopefully sooner than that), making bugs in the old sheet not too interesting. If you still observe this behavior in 0.8 (once it comes out) let me know and I will investigate.

Will do. I will edit this post later with the combat log for that test.

It will be interesting to see how this new Weapon Skill to Expertise change in 2.3 will affect rogues. I'm worried about losing the +hit bonus from weapon skill as the patch notes only specify a .25% reduction in dodge and parry per point of expertise. Great for tanks, not so great for rogues if that's the case. Barring any changes to the precision talent, wouldn't that raise the hit cap across the board for all races to 363 or something like that? Frightening thought...

Well at first glance the New weapon expertise, looks like it will hurt. being a human rogue I have 365 weapon skill naturally so the lose of hit will hurt, but it does look like as you get close to capping weapon expertise around 21 skill (I believe) it will be better 5% dodge reduction is nice.

Basically it will come down to how much Hit will we need and at what cost to other stats. That is where we will need to test. so basically sense we pretty well know how the current system works time to learn a whole new one :/

I've been running uptimemeter the last few raids and wanted to let you know that [Band of the Eternal Champion] has an average uptime of 13%. wws is at Daemona - WWS and i can upload you a log of that particular raid if you want, Aldriana.

A log would be helpful. I also wouldn't say no to a controlled test in Blasted Lands.

I am assuming you will want Data on the weapon skill change. What do you want and how would you like it done. I have some time this weekend I will try to get you testing data from PTR.

* Re: Shadow-walker's Cord. In 0.7.7, I think you're just in an unusual area of the gear space where it is actually that good. In 0.8, there are significant changes being made that will drop it's value further. It also should be noted that it only wins if you score it with BT gems off; if you allow the competing belts (all of which have 2 sockets) to be socketed with BT gems, Shadow-walker's no longer holds a clear lead.

* Re: Band of the Eternal Champion. Standard auto-attack test with one weapon (or two weapons of the same speed) would probably be ideal. Doing tests at two different speeds (i.e., test with 2x1.3 speed weapons, and then do another test with 2x2.6 speed weapons) would also potentially be interesting. The only reason why Warglaives needs the more complicated thing is the inability to test with a single weapon or two weapons of the same speed.

* Re: Expertise. Well, since they're telling us exactly what it does, I think the most important thing is going to be establish what the base miss and dodge rates of level 73s are. This is going to involve stacking increasingly ludicrous amounts of +hit and fighting boss-level mobs until you stop missing. Whether it will be possible to do the same with expertise and dodge rate remains to be seen; we'll have to see what itemization looks like. Observations so far:

1) Paladins weapon skill talent gives both expertise and stamina; it's entirely possible that WEx will give more than just Expertise.

2) If it does just give expertise, it goes from it's current behavior where it gives +3.5% hit, +.4% crit, +.4% enemy dodge (we think) to a straight 2.5% dodge reduction. This is certainly a nerf, but not necessarily an overwhelming one. And, past the first 5 points, Expertise is actually more powerful than Weapon Skill.

Long story short: we'll have to see what happens. Starting with what the new talent does, and moving quickly into what the hit/expertise caps are.

So, here's the deal. I now have all the mechanics changes made in the sheet, plus a few assorted other adjustments. What I don't have is any of the UI improvements (stat summary block, etc.). And, as you may have noticed, there's a patch coming out shortly.

So, the question is: would you like the current incarnation of the sheet now (well, tomorrow morning, but, same idea)... or would you prefer that I wait a few days, finish the UI adjustments, and add Warglaive set bonus, Band of the Eternal Champion, and the new 2.3 loot before releasing?

Hey Aldriana, I'm a bit slow but it occurred to me that since energy is a scarce source of ours, never losing energy from dodged sinisters could be a potentially very powerful boost (possibly helping offset the raised hit cap, if it is indeed raised)

How hard would it be to figure out how much dps you'd gain from never having your sinisters dodged? With your gear for example. I forget exactly how much energy we lose on a dodged sinister strike 8? 12? Hell with never being dodged many of us in that limbo area between 3s/5r and 4s/5r might find it possible to actually pull off 3s/5r. Maybe I'm just dreaming :-)

EDIT: I'm impatient as hell, so I'd say release what you got now but...yea

I'd suggest you just push it as 0.7.8 with all what you have done by now. The PTR Info will be overwhelming i assume, changes to weapon skill, new hit cap due to that, figuring out expertise etc... though i would love to see the assumptions on wairglaves and band of eternal champion in that version then

To clarify the tradeoff: cleaning stuff up for release is sort of a nuisance, so I'd prefer not to do it more often that I have to. Hence, if I release what I have now, there probably won't be another full version (other than fixes) until we've nailed down all the 2.3 stuff. So the question is: everything for 2.2 now, and nothing for 2.3 for a couple weeks... or some limited amount of 2.3 stuff in a couple days.

Regarding dodged Sinister Strikes: minimal effect. Sinister Strike that never gets dodged would be roughly a 1% increase to your sinister strike damage, and hence about 4-5 DPS total. Not really that big a deal.

Ballpark figures for those who are just that curious:
Warglaive Set Bonus: ~300 AP
Band of the Eternal Champion: about 12 AP ahead of the Revered Band of Eternity, aka just barely ahead of Band of the Ranger-General and Band of Lethality in weighted total, though behind both in raw DPS.
Excutioner Enchant: assuming PPM the same as Mongoose, it's likely just slightly more damage (though less defensive mods) than Mongoose - hence, in weighted total, about the same. Not worth reenchanting for, but for a new piece of gear, it may be worth using.

Those ballpark figures are more than enough to resolve any questions I'd have were you to release the spreadsheet tomorrow.

As for the sinister strike dmg boost...wow, guess it's time to cross fingers and pray hit cap was reduced.