I'd say release what you are happiest with as it is your work. If I could pick either one though, I'd say wait a few days and see what you can glean about the PTR since, as you said, it may be a while before we see a new version after that.

Well, it's not quite as bad as it looks. Yes, the hit cap may end up being a fair amount higher, but we can also mitigate dodge more than ever before. Again: if WEx does anything other than +10 Expertise, there's a very good chance that we'll wind up with a net buff out of this.

Of course, if it doesn't do anything else, then, yes, it's a nerf. But it's a reasonably small one, and certainly no reason to go into "the sky is falling!" mode.

http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...cloth-back.jpg
http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...kets-stuff.jpg
http://www.worldofraids.com/news/oct...kets-stuff.jpg

Time to start playing with the sheet adding new stuff.
Just at glance the new boots are a huge upgrade from the omnipresent moroes boots and the bracers look promising for those not at rage winterchill :-)

Tested the 4 rogue items on those screenshots in the sheets, results are quite interesting(AP for my gear(gruul-ssc)

-Boots:244 AP. For reference Shadowmaster boots are worth 233ap and Moroes(my boots) ones are worth 211ap. So these heroic-obtainable boots are well above some BT loot(thanks! :P)
-Bracers:164AP. Swiftstrike are worth 176, insiduous 196, deadly cuffs 180 and vambraces of ending 147. Shard bound bracers(my previous one) are worth 129ap
-Leggings:325ap. T4(mine)=312, T5=321, Skulker=335, Shady dealer=326

The cloak is on par with auchenai death shroud and a bit under vengeance wrap. One has to consider that it has resilience and a big amount of stamina, so I think it's becoming my new pvp cloak

Edit:Forgot to add the gloves
-Gloves:219 ap. T5=239, T4=189. Searing grip=201.

Just posting to concur with Nilme's assessments. Essentially, anyone still in SSC/TK will be taking the bracers as an upgrade over anything available at that point, and anyone in any guild will want the boots, which are simply amazing.

As far as the pants go, they are certainly better than T4, but not by enough to warrant the cost, in my opinion. For a T5 rogue, they certainly won't be worth it because, at least personally, I'd rather keep the 4/5 T5 bonus than use those haste pants, and Bloodsea Brigand's is better than T5 chest, so the pants have to go. There's also a pair of haste gloves, they seem to be, like the pants, roughly between T4 and T5 in quality.

Pretty much the same here, boots seem to be best in game, legs about equal to t5(without set bonuses), bracers best you can get before hyjal/bt.

Hmm, there's no clear melee dps neck reward there. Unless they expect us to use the "tanking" one... But I don't see how 22hit and 21 expertise rating would beat Vile Intent.

The boots... Well they are itemized incredibly well. But imo the blue socket makes Nyn'jah's Tabi boots somewhat inferior to Shadowmaster's.

Let's say for combat you'd socket with orange/yellow/purple you'd end up with:

35agi, 38stam, 15 hit, 20crit, 76ap (Pyrestone/Lionseye)
vs
39agi, 28stam, 30hit, 0crit, 60ap. (Shadowsong/Pyrestone)

Coming down to:
4agi, 15hit vs 20crit and 16ap.

Socketing 2x Lionseye might change it a bit.
Very close, but I'll be sticking to my Shadowmaster's, better for mutilate anyway.

Bracers are really nice, but all the other pieces (ugh... haste) are somewhat lackluster to be honest. Looking at the caster and feral druid pieces I'm somewhat disappointed in the rogue ones.

Both the melee trinkets are nothing special either, but probably worth using over the Talisman (if you have that). WSC/TT or Madness (and Renataki of course) will still be better choices for pvp.

The cloak is rather nice, excellent alternative to Teron cloak for pvp. Still it's 60 badge's which is kinda smeh. You wouldn't probably use it over Drape of the Dark Reavers for pve. So for a purely pvp semi-upgrade it's a tad bit expensive imho.

I'd be interested in seeing the S3 weapons as well as the honor boots/belt/bracers. If they feature any armor reduction, then stacking that might offer some interesting results. Probably not enough to outdo BT items but depending on the weapon dps and it's stats (~~100-104dps s2 stats+ 120 armor reduction would be very very nice.)

For the record, posts in the "[Melee/Hunters] 2.3 Patch Notes - Weapon skill to Expertise" thread indicate WeapEx changes in PTR are just a straight conversion from weapon skill to Expertise, no extra bonuses.

Version 0.8

Please read the FAQ before posting issues with the sheet

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Note that significant changes were made to the calculation sheets in this revision, so there may be bugs; if you find something that seems unusual, please let me know.

Changes:
*Updated all PPM effects for the new findings regarding their interaction with haste.
*Updated the proc rate of Coup de Grace to .5 PPM
*Updated the armor information for consistency with the findings in [RAID] Boss armor values
*Updated math for Sinister Calling, Vitality, and Deadliness
*Updated Murder modeling for the new findings with it.
*Changed the internal cooldown of Tsunami Talisman and Hourglass of the Unraveler to 45 sec.
*Removed the option to activate the haste nerf or not; all computations now use the new, nerfed, haste.
*Corrected Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality model; the new computations will yield slightly higher uptimes.
*Added 20 sec internal cooldown to Dragonspine Trophy
*Allowed Rigid Lionseye to be recommended.
*Replaced +15 agi to weapon with the new +20 agi to weapon enchant
*Added new buffs: Faerie Fire, Sunder Armor, Curse of Recklessness, Haste Potions, Drums of War, Drums of Battle, Heroic Presence, Expose Weakness, and Heroism/Bloodlust.

More quick thoughts and estimates regarding 2.3 gear:

1) Expertise is, point-for-point, almost exactly equivalent to Hit Rating. So for those of you wanting to do estimates in the meantime, plugging Expertise as extra hit rating will make a pretty good approximation of worth.
2) Brooch of Deftness is significantly inferior to Choker of Vile Intent
3) Dory's Embrace ranks 4th in overall cloak quality, about 10 AP behind Drape of the Dark Reavers. It is 5th in DPS, also behind Vegeance Wrap.
4) All the new trinkets are useless for PvE.
5) Is anyone else mildly annoyed that they've implemented 3 new feral druid belts but no new rogue belt?
6) Shallow Grave Trousers are comparable to Leggings of Murderous Intent, Deathmantle Legguards, and Skulker's Greaves. Hence, if you have one of those 3, they're probably not worth getting; if you don't, they are a reasonable upgrade over other options.
7) Trickster's Stickyfingers are a nice intermediate between T4 and T5, where there was previously a considerable gap.
8) Nyn'jah Tabi Boots are only slightly inferior to Shadowmaster's Treads, and certainly far better than anything else.
9) Master Assassin Wraps are the best bracers pre-Hyjal. By a lot. But they are behind Insidious, Deadly, and Swiftstrike.

I Still find it funny that we are debating boots from the second "raid" (used loosely since it is a 10 man) boss we would fight in this game as the best boots in the game. But i am glad i saved those 41 badges, and didn't burn them on the broach, cause that would be another 90 badges i would need to farm.

One thing I am disappointed about is the fact that they didn't add an offhand sword to the Badge table. That is what I was really hoping for, but now that i think about it, they should have added an offhand for every weapon spec except for Daggers. To give people an non high end raid/pvp way to obtain offhands that are actually fast. I am very happy with my decision to farm the [Searing Sunblade] and i think other specs should have had that same option and not be forced to pvp for offhands.

It also forces me to stay daggers. As much as i love my daggers, i can't really switch because my only other fast offands are the [Blackout Truncheon] and [Latro's Shifting Sword] and those are really going to help my dps. I guess i could try the ever popular Sword/Dagger spec.

Spreadsheet doesn't handle expertise yet. When it does, it will convert them to hits.

Thanks for the update, didn't experience any bugs thus far.

Excellent update Aldriana!

However, I noticed a new little quirk with how gem slots work, and I'm not sure you intended for them to function this way.

When I downloaded the new version and was going through switching from your gear to mine, I noticed that when I switched a piece of gear that had more/less or different colored gem slots, the spreadsheet didn't actually recognize the discrepancy until I clicked on a gem slot that was either supposed to exist but didn't, or didn't exist but should have.

A good example is going from your Swiftstrike Bracers to my Veteran's Leather Bracers, I gain a yellow gem slot. Merely switching the item didn't reveal my new gem slot, however; I had to click on a grayed-out gem slot to cause it to activate itself.

Also, when switching to a piece of gear with fewer gem slots than its predecessor, the recommended gem slots will not change from what was in them before (so if I go from, say, Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless to Shoulderpads of the Stranger, I will have two gems in the recommended slots, but only one available socket slot.

I didn't notice this in your 0.8 update post, but I apologize if it was mentioned previously. I'm posting during my work break, so I didn't go back and comb through all the older replies.

Thanks!

Hmm... what spreadsheet program are you using? I ask because it's working just fine for me both under Excel 2003 and OpenOffice 2.2, so it sounds like it must be a problem specific to the editor you're using, or some such thing.

I am using Microsoft Excel 2003

It's not a sheet-breaking problem; I can still make full use of it by just clicking all gem slots individually after changing an item to refresh them. I'll keep trying different things to see if I can pinpoint what is causing the problem for me, though.

Is this happening to anyone else, or just me?

2nd edit: The problem is actually worse than I originally noticed. I re-downloaded the sheet to make sure it wasn't just a fluke and that I hadn't downloaded the wrong version by mistake, and the problem reappeared.

No matter what I change, in any field, the rough DPS does not change. I tried changing talents, gems, gear, enchants, and buffs, but nothing I changed made any difference. I just got done going through and removing every piece of gear, zeroing out all talents, and removing all buffs. Despite all that, the Rough DPS did not change and I still see the same values in Suggested Gems and "Socket Bonus?" as I did with a fully populated sheet.

I hope it's just some bonehead error I'm making that is causing this :/

The 5000 armor being used in previous versions of the sheet was post-sunders; in the new version, it's unmodified. So if you have the default concert of buffs up (which includes Sunders and Faerie Fire), mob armor is actually lower now than it was before. So that might be part of it. Try setting the buffs up to give the same armor as before, and see if that fixes it. If not, you'll need to send me your sheet.

I typed a lot and then realized I was wrong, but I want to notice the nerf to my trinkets effect on my dps.

I looked into it and noticed that you were only off by 100armor on your assumption (assuming 7700 armor -2600 for 5SA you get 5100 armor on most bosses). That said, using the tabs in .8 to get 5SA up + the 7700 base armor of the boss (still equal to 5100, correct?) I am still seeing close to a 50DPS difference, in favor of .8.

where can I host my two spreadsheet files so you can see. I admit that I'm at work so I may have missed a buff or change in my gear, but I'll check again...


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SONUVALAKJFOI!%!#%#

I just noticed that FF isnt an option in the old spreadsheet, was it an assumed debuff and you only gave the option for "Imp FF"?

If it wasnt an assumed debuff, then by taking FF off for both sheets puts me at about a 9-10dps increase for the new sheet, which is still odd considering both my trinkets were nerfed :\.

Wait a minute, that doesn't make sense to me. If, say, 5% of your Sinister Strikes are being Dodged, and you get enough Expertise to nullify that Dodge, doesn't that increase your overall SS DPS by 5%? Seems like it to me. Where does that magical 1% number come from? Can you explain your math for this to me?

*edit2: nvm, was reminded that dodged special attacks don't cost full energy.

Sounds to me like Excel isn't automatically recalculating values; try going to Tools -> Options -> Calculate and make sure calculation is on automatic. Other than that, I don't have much to suggest.

The new version seems to have my gear entered rather than yours, but when I update it to have the exact same gear as the 0.7.7 you posted, I get a DPS total of 1443.83 for 0.7.7 and 1379.41 for 0.8, which seems about right to me. I'm not sure what the problem you're having is, but the sheet seems to be working correctly as far as I can tell.

Right, and that's the key point. At the moment there's roughly a 5% chance that a SS will be dodged. If it's dodged, you lose 8 energy and get to try again; hence, the averaged energy required to get an SS to actually go off is 32+8/.95 (or so) - pulling the actual number from the spreadsheet, with the default gear this works out to an expected 40.44 energy per SS. If we were never dodged, it would be 40 energy per SS, a reduction in cost by about the 1 percent sited earlier. The bigger advantage is that it's less disruptive to your cycles, as there are circumstances where having to make a 2nd (or 3rd) try to land the SS will cause your SnD to lapse for a second or your energy to cap out. This isn't modeled in the sheet, though.

1) Do I understand correctly that 1 weapon skill was better then 1 hitrating so this is another nerf for rogues?
8) Far better? Comparing Edgewalker they only offer +6 hit, +16 AP and -7 stam. The fact that you need a blue gem makes the socketbonus pretty useless as there are no good blue dps gems. Better I agree.. but far better? Hardly imho.
On the other hand there is offcourse no other boots upgrade from the 2nd boss in KZ (edgewalker) to the 7th (?) boss in Black Temple (Shadowmaster's Boots). :/