Assuming the base miss and dodge rates stay the same, most of us will experience a slight (very slight) drop in DPS. For reference: 0.8 gives my DPS, fully raid buffed, at 1718.56. The hacked version with 2.3 changes gives a value of 1696.66. So we're talking a nerf on the order of 1%. For those of you that are human, the difference will be even smaller.
Smaller for humans? I read soemwhere that the human racial gets changed to +1% crit chance with swords for 2.3. That makes the nerf for humans even bigger right?
The new food will relieve the nerf a bit I guess: [Spicy Hot Talbuk] but you do loose 20 agi or 40 AP caus of it.
I have a couple of questions concerning the recently uploaded version of your spreadsheet. In the Xs5r tab, under the 'Actual Attack Counts' section, the 'MH Procs Per PPM' cells (row 276) refer to the 'MH Atts' cells (row 257). Should this be 'MH Hits' (row 260) instead? In the previous sections the 'MH Procs Per PPM' cells referenced the latter cells.
Also, in the iterative sections, is blade flurry taken into account? I did not notice a reference to it until the 'Actual Attack Accounts' section.
Edit for one additional thought: does the spreadsheet take into account ppm procs caused by rupture?
1) Yes, it should point to MH hits. I'll fix it in the next version. In the meantime, the sheet will slightly overvalue PPM effects.
2) Blade Flurry (and Heroism, and Haste Pots/Drums, and Adrenaline Rush) aren't factored in during the iterative portion. The reason for this is that one can't realistically adjust one's cycle based on a buff you receive only once every 2 minutes. So you get the benefit of the extra attacks/energy from a damage perspective, but you don't get to contract your cycle based on them, which I would argue is a pretty effective model of how things work; AR doesn't let you drop your cycle from 3.3s5r to 2.8s5r (or whatever) - you do your normal cycle most of the time, and just squeeze in a bunch of extra Sinister Strikes (and maybe an Eviscerate or something) during the AR itself, and then go back to your regular cycle.
3) The spreadsheet doesn't factor in PPM effects based on rupture, since, to my knowledge, no one has ever figured out what the proc behavior of finishers is.
Well, the simplest way to figure it out would be to download the sheet for which this forum thread is named and try it out. My guess would be that 20/41 does more direct damage but the hemo debuff may close the gap, but, again, that's why we have a spreadsheet.
Originally Posted by enno
Smaller for humans? I read soemwhere that the human racial gets changed to +1% crit chance with swords for 2.3. That makes the nerf for humans even bigger right?
The new food will relieve the nerf a bit I guess: [Spicy Hot Talbuk] but you do loose 20 agi or 40 AP caus of it.
Well, from the perspective of a combat rogue who is past the big hump of the first 5 points of combat skill anyway, the human racial currently gives .5% hit, .2% crit, and .2% dodge, according to the model in this sheet. Is 1% crit better than that? I would argue that it is, just barely. Converting things to rating points and scoring them in the spreadsheet, my count is that the current human racial is worth 39.1 AP for a combat rogue (at least, one that's wearing my gear), and the new one will be worth 43.2 AP. So, yes, slightly less for humans.
Originally Posted by Tosa
A strange little thing in 0.8. Vile Poisons still adds to the Rough DPS even when I don't have any poisons in my buff lists.
That would be because the model I'm using for Deadly Poison appears to be incorrect. I'll fix that soon enough; in the meantime, know that DPS number generated while not using Deadly Poison on at least one hand will be incorrect.
Well, the simplest way to figure it out would be to download the sheet for which this forum thread is named and try it out. My guess would be that 20/41 does more direct damage but the hemo debuff may close the gap, but, again, that's why we have a spreadsheet.
20/41 comes on top with Gear Spreadsheet with 33,99dps, on DPS Spreadsheet (other thread) about 40dps ahead. If you use Hemo Debuff DPS Estimate on DPS Spreadsheet 11/21/29 comes on top with ~28dps.
Dont know which conclusion to make from these, 11/21/29 might be better for raiding or? Anyone with more experience from hemo?
Edit: went for 16/45 Rod/S2 MQB combo till BoI or 2.3 patch.
Ground the numbers on these, and the answer appears to be that it's a 1 PPM effect with a 60 sec internal cooldown. Details available upon request, but it's fairly unambiguous. With that proc behavior and my gear, the spreadsheet predicts 12.6% uptime on the proc, which matches well with the 13% you found in practice; hence the estimates I made before are probably pretty good. I will add the ring to the next version of the sheet.
Hmmm i was just fiddling around with speccs on PTR and ran into a problem. To create a viable combat/subtley hemo build i have to drop Relentless Strikes... like in 10/28/23.
Anyone got a suggestion on what to drop? 1 Weapon Expertise? 1 Dirtydeeds? 1 Sword Spec?
I've been considering the spec as well, though I wasn't planning to drop Relentless (It's just too good. Single best point we can spend), Dirty Deeds is really only worth like 20-25 dps per point, average though. Obviously I'd value it higher since usually the low end of a mob's life is when you need more damage (Though not always, Solarian for instance), but still it's not amazing point for point. I was showing Deadliness better than Sword spec as well, though you then miss out on Blade Flurry (Which I was considering over Prep, even though I would miss Prep a great deal. I can only assume BF every 2 minutes beats vanishing a few times and garroting for dps).
All in all, I don't see it mathematically competing with Combat to the highest level, but it should perform just fine. I intend to give it a shot and see - absolutely loved Hemo back in Naxx with the MSA, and I feel like the dirty Deeds change should push it just enough to perform at least.
Something I've been considering since we began to see armor-pen gear:
At what point where armor mitigation is low from passive/active armor-pen will evis become a better finisher? Also, you have to thing that most rogues in BT level gear are sitting around 28-30% unbuffed crit, raising their raid-buffed crit up into the 40's a lot of times.
I know the math is possible, just don't know where to start, just wondering, because even with the vile poisons + 1/4 avg SS dmg from more energy overall, evis could, conceivably, become a better finisher at some point... :\
I'm confused with the recomended cycle section of the spreadsheet. Its recommending I go 5s3r but having done so on Morogrim where I never got tombed, there is no way I can complete this cycle and still have SnD up 100%. I've always been under the impression that SnD should be up at all times for the best DPS. There was a few times I hadn't even gotten my 4th combo point when SnD had run out. Is the cycle assuming that I'm somehow keeping SnD up all the time, or is my best DPS cycle one where it know that I'm only around 85-90% uptime with it?
Something I've been considering since we began to see armor-pen gear:
At what point where armor mitigation is low from passive/active armor-pen will evis become a better finisher? Also, you have to thing that most rogues in BT level gear are sitting around 28-30% unbuffed crit, raising their raid-buffed crit up into the 40's a lot of times.
I know the math is possible, just don't know where to start, just wondering, because even with the vile poisons + 1/4 avg SS dmg from more energy overall, evis could, conceivably, become a better finisher at some point... :\
Coincidentally, I have a little spreadsheet that whips out damage per energy calculations for Eviscerate and Rupture based on all your stats, and also allows you to calculate your raid buffed stats, to simulate exactly what you're talking about. As a sword build, with raid-buffed stats of 36% crit (plus RED), 3330 AP (time averaged), and hell, let's even throw in 2-piece Deathmantle and 3/3 Imp Evis, 5-CP Eviscerate is only 83.40 DPE against 0 armor, while Rupture is still 93.55.
There is basically no point where Evis catches up to Rupture because even with Imp Evis and realistically achievable amounts of crit, it just doesn't scale as well with AP, plus it costs 35 energy to Rupture's 25.
Based on figures in posts 942 and 943 I mimicked the math but subbed in 3k ap rather than 2500 and assumed the same crit rate of 30% (which to be fair should probably be higher). Assuming 25% armor mitigation 30% crit and full evic buffs + 2pc t5, which I think is generous I came up with the following:
2014.5 average evic dmg after 25% armor mitigation.
1721 avg rupture dmg (with mangle)
Then I added the 234 extra poison damage described in post 959 and took in to account the fact that rupture costs 10 less energy. That puts evicerate at 2014.5 and rupture at 1955 before taking in to account energy cost.
35 energy --> Evicerate: 57.56 DPE
25 energy --> Rupture: 78.2 DPE
35% crit and only 20% armor mitigation with the works (full evic bonuses) it's DPE only comes out to 63.75.
40% crit and only 15% armor mitigation with the works (full evic bonuses) it's DPE only comes out to 70.25
Maybe I'm way off on the math here, but I think I've got it reasonably close based on the information in the previous posts.
I'm confused with the recomended cycle section of the spreadsheet. Its recommending I go 5s3r but having done so on Morogrim where I never got tombed, there is no way I can complete this cycle and still have SnD up 100%. I've always been under the impression that SnD should be up at all times for the best DPS. There was a few times I hadn't even gotten my 4th combo point when SnD had run out. Is the cycle assuming that I'm somehow keeping SnD up all the time, or is my best DPS cycle one where it know that I'm only around 85-90% uptime with it?
Thanks for entertaining my question.
So, your armory currently has a Riding Crop equipped, so I can't be sure what your usual 2nd trinket is, but the only selection I can find that makes the recommendation 5s3r would be Dragonspine Trophy, so I'm going to assume that for the moment.
With your gear as listed in Armory + Dragonspine Trophy, the cycle recommendation is 5s3r. According to the sheet, this should be sustainable with SnD uptime of 99.7%; that is, it will drop occasionally, but for the most part it will be up. So, first question: is this reasonable?
Well, lets see. To execute a 5s3r cycle with 2/3 Ruthlessness requires an average of 7.2 backstabs per cycle, which takes 432 energy. It also costs 10 net energy to launch a 3 point rupture, so the total energy requirement is 442 energy. With 2/5 T4, a 5-pt SnD lasts 34.8 seconds; hence, for this to be sustainable from a theoretical perspective, one needs to generate 442/34.8 = 12.7 energy per second. Your hit rate is about 95% (<1% miss chance, 5% dodge chance), and you are attacking with a 1.4 speed weapon. With SnD, this works out to .88 hits per second or so, which is 2.65 energy per second, plus the baseline regen of 10 is 12.65. Compare to the 12.7 needed, and recalling that we never factored in the extra energy procs from Dragonspine Trophy... all in all, this looks more or less sustainable in the average case.
Now, in practice, energy regen isn't that smooth. Ruthlessness can fail to proc a couple times in a row, Combat Potency can have a dry spell, and so on. So, in practice, yes, this cycle, like all tight cycles, may have issues with sustainability; the energy bar is not large enough to let you smooth out these differences in the long-term average case; particularly as a dagger rogue, which limits the size of the energy buffer you can reasonably sustain.
Thus, while this cycle is theoretically possible, I probably wouldn't use it in reality. Instead, I would do one of two things:
1) Use 5s5r3s instead, which will be far more sustainable and has average-case DPS less than 1 DPS behind 5s3r, or
2) Drop another point from Lethality to get 3/3 Ruthlessness, which will allow you to trim your cycle down to 1s3r (with the occasional 4-point rupture if Combat Potency/Ruthlessness give you a nice spike), which has sustained DPS that is also comparable and much less likely to drop SnD uptime.
Based on figures in posts 942 and 943 I mimicked the math but subbed in 3k ap rather than 2500 and assumed the same crit rate of 30% (which to be fair should probably be higher). Assuming 25% armor mitigation 30% crit and full evic buffs + 2pc t5, which I think is generous I came up with the following:
2014.5 average evic dmg after 25% armor mitigation.
1721 avg rupture dmg (with mangle)
Then I added the 234 extra poison damage described in post 959 and took in to account the fact that rupture costs 10 less energy. That puts evicerate at 2014.5 and rupture at 1955 before taking in to account energy cost.
35 energy --> Evicerate: 57.56 DPE
25 energy --> Rupture: 78.2 DPE
35% crit and only 20% armor mitigation with the works (full evic bonuses) it's DPE only comes out to 63.75.
40% crit and only 15% armor mitigation with the works (full evic bonuses) it's DPE only comes out to 70.25
Maybe I'm way off on the math here, but I think I've got it reasonably close based on the information in the previous posts.
HMM so it looks like, raid buffed, you'd have to get it wayyy below 15% mitigation to have the same level of DPE than ruputure. :\ Just wondering, noticed a lot of armor pen available, plus the rise in crit would mean an improvement, not to mention, if you include mangle into the equation, rupture gaines even more dpe probably... :\
Based on figures in posts 942 and 943 I mimicked the math but subbed in 3k ap rather than 2500 and assumed the same crit rate of 30% (which to be fair should probably be higher). Assuming 25% armor mitigation 30% crit and full evic buffs + 2pc t5, which I think is generous I came up with the following:
2014.5 average evic dmg after 25% armor mitigation.
1721 avg rupture dmg (with mangle)
...
Maybe I'm way off on the math here, but I think I've got it reasonably close based on the information in the previous posts.
You made a mistake in your rupture's value :
1000 + 3000*0.24 = 1720.
Therefore, your 1720 avg rupture is without mangle.
With mangle it turns to be a 2236 avg rupture, with a 89.44 DPE without any poison value.
Deep Shadows is superior only if you can socket it with epic gems, and the official gem policy in my guild is that they're generally only given for best-in-slot items. Socketed the way it currently is, it has a slight DPS advantage but a significant sta estimate relative to Shadowwalkers. I pull out Deep Shadows for purely sustained fights and fights where I don't expect to take a lot of damage, but for day-to-day use I feel that Shadowwalker's has the edge.
Deep Shadows is superior only if you can socket it with epic gems, and the official gem policy in my guild is that they're generally only given for best-in-slot items. Socketed the way it currently is, it has a slight DPS advantage but a significant sta estimate relative to Shadowwalkers. I pull out Deep Shadows for purely sustained fights and fights where I don't expect to take a lot of damage, but for day-to-day use I feel that Shadowwalker's has the edge.
Ah I follow you. It's interesting because for my gear it has belt of deepshadows ahead from an "Offensive" weighted standpoint by a smidge (2 AP) even before any gems are placed in the belt. After rigid dawnstones Deep shadows is ahead like 12 AP equivalents. Perhaps also I just have a fair amount of stam overall and I don't feel the need for the stam on the Akama belt.
When I equip Deep Shadows, gemmed as it is right now, I gain ~2 dps relative to Shadowwalker's, and lose 24 stamina. This would drop me from my current ~9500 unbuffed to ~9300. And, fundamentally, there's enough incidental damage on most of these fights that having the extra cushion strikes me as nice. I mean, it's not truly *essential* on most fights, but it increases your chances of surviving a bad combination of 2 or more of Blizzard/Flamestrike/Consecrate/Deadly Poison on Council, Provides cushion on phases 2 and 3 of Reliquary (and phase 1 as well, depending on your strategy), and so on. There's only about 3 fights in Hyjal/BT where I *don't* find that extra HP are useful - Kaz'rogal, Teron, and Gurtogg.
So, again, tradeoffs, as always. If we were talking 10 DPS vs 24 sta, my answer would be different. But 2 DPS vs 24 sta? I find it hard to argue that's not worth it.
In other news: I punched the new ZA loot into my spreadsheet, and it appears that the most interesting piece of loot in the instance, from a rogue's perspective, is Signet of Primal Wrath, which is second only to Stormrage's Signet Ring in terms of overall quality, ranking just slightly ahead of Ring of Deceitful Intent in terms of weighted total (and about 10 AP ahead in terms of raw DPS). Most of the rest of the loot weighs in about where you'd expect: better than Karazhan loot, but slightly inferior to SSC/TK loot.
What's the word on including the weapon expertise changes into the spreadsheet? I know that there might need to be some more testing done (although it seems like the main thing up in the air is whether it will in fact apply to parries, which doesn't affect us much). Also I imagine that there will need to be quite a few calculations added and removed as it is a totally new stat. Anyway, just curious, we were fighting Al'ar last night and the gloves that drop are only slightly better than T4 atm, I'm wondering if they will be a bit better with the expertise change.
What's the word on including the weapon expertise changes into the spreadsheet? I know that there might need to be some more testing done (although it seems like the main thing up in the air is whether it will in fact apply to parries, which doesn't affect us much). Also I imagine that there will need to be quite a few calculations added and removed as it is a totally new stat. Anyway, just curious, we were fighting Al'ar last night and the gloves that drop are only slightly better than T4 atm, I'm wondering if they will be a bit better with the expertise change.
Per point expertise is worth more weapon skill, at least thats what was said earlier, and that was my original thinking as well. Thats after the first 5 points of weapon skill, so talented you get those points and on gear its worth more, if you understand what im saying.
So, again, tradeoffs, as always. If we were talking 10 DPS vs 24 sta, my answer would be different. But 2 DPS vs 24 sta? I find it hard to argue that's not worth it.
Fair enough.
Have you done any crunching on the Executioner enchant? I understand it does not stack, but assuming its the same PPM as Mongoose would you go Exec MH/Mongoose offhand or vice-versa?
I did 2 tests regarding Executioner MH proccing. One with normal dps cycle with all abilities, the other with no haste, no abilities, just pute autoattack.
10/13/07, 10:37 AM
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