I'm not going to be releasing another update until 2.3 settles down and we have a pretty good idea what all the changes are. Getting versions ready for release is sort of a nuisance, so I don't want to mess with it while things are still a) reasonably unknown and b) potentially could change. However, if you review the last few pages, you will find my preliminary estimates on the matter.

I have some rough hacks a few pages back; the short answer is that, assuming it's 1 PPM like Mongoose, if you value the 6% dodge mongoose gives, double Mongoose is the way to go; if you don't, then Executioner MH/Mongoose OH is optimal.

That test is really too short to say much; we can say that the proc rate is between 1.7% and 5.5%, which would include the option of 1 PPM = 4.33%; but there's any number of other things it could be as well.

No chance of getting a "0.8.0 with hit formula for 363 rating" ?

Possibly. Although I've yet to see confirmation of the 363 number yet; before I change anything officially I'd like to see a test confirming what the base miss/dodge rate numbers in 2.3 are, which, to date, I have not seen.

Lmao. Wow, I thought they had included mangle in that figure. Then evicerate definitely does not and most likely will not ever come close to rupture for raid boss dps. Thanks for the heads up!

Log from the latest Zul Aman Raid (complete) running 348 hitrating. I had a total of 25 white misses (0.5%), no other hit modifying buffs/debuffs the whole raid.
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Am I correct in assuming that this log contains both boss fights and trash? If so, it would be consistent with a base 28% miss rate, but it's hard to say for absolute certain due to the miss rate being different against different mobs.

47 pages in people are a bit less confused than you walking up for the first time, phatz...

There are two threads.
There are two spreadsheets.
They are not really related.
Either can help a rogue. In fact both can.
Some like this one, some like the other one.

See first post for discussion on differences between the sheets.

Actually I was able to add new items pretty easily and the formula's worked fine.

All I had to do after unhiding the sheets I needed was to insert a new row right before the last line of that equipment slot. Then just copy/paste the cells using formulas, entered the stats etc...

As for the drop location, that was a bit trickier. I just used existing ones (didnt think you could just add a new location and get it to show due to the check boxes on the main page). Examples:
for Zul'Aman gear I just labeled it as dropping in Kara for now.
for my Assassination gear I just labeled it as 5 mans.
for the new Heroic Badge loots, I just labeled it as heroics.

This is all a temporary fix till a new sheet comes out but worked fine for me.

sadly, the best OH weapon I have right now is the Malchazeen. Any chance that the gear spreadsheet can be accomodated for weapons like this, that are decent, but not the best choice in a particular slot. As a point of reference, I play a Combat spec and do fairly well in the meters. My dilemma with your spreadsheet is that i cannot get an accurate optimal HIT with the current OH dagger. I know..get a decent sword, and I am working on it. No time for PvP, will look to 2.3 and the new OH there, but for the meantime this is what i have to work with.


Thanks.

Malchazeen is NOT a decent off hander for a combat sword build, and probably not for any combat build at all. There a plenty of blues (especially Latros comes to mind) and probably even some green weapons that would be better suited.
Anyway, you can manually add Malchazeen as an off hander. Right click on the Talent_Equipment tab at the bottom left corner of your Excel window. Select Show, mark Weapons and click Okay. In the Weapons sheet, you can simply replace the values of any off hand dagger to those of Malchazeen.

Any numbers on the new Mace spec? I was thinking of grabbing the Kael mace and trying mace+sword if the new mace spec made it worth it.

I posted some quick thoughts on this in post 1106:

Basically, the ranking of top-end MH weapons looks something like this:

1.[Warglaive of Azzinoth]
2.[Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer]
3.[Blade of Infamy]
4.[Talon of Azshara]
5.[Talon of the Phoenix]
6.[Merciless Gladiator's Slicer]
7.[Dragonstrike]
8.[Rod of the Sun King]
9.[Syphon of the Nathrezim]

I didn't bother to include the non-sword PvP MHs, as I have a hard time seeing why one would pick one up as they're inferior to the MH Swords.

Edit: Savagery->Infamy

While you're at it, could you hack the spreadsheet to support a mace/sword spec for 2.3? Unlike Lethality, mace spec will not just increase the critical damage bonus, but also the base damage (e.g. 100 non crit will cause 210 damage with mace spec). This effect seems to stack multiplicative with Lethality, although I am not 100% sure about this anymore... I lost my scrap paper :/
As you usually run aroud with approx. 40% Crit, I could imagine this to be equal to sword/sword spec.

Ald, I assume you meant [Blade of Infamy] instead of [Blade of Savagery]; the latter being 1.4 speed and therefore not an ideal MH?

Also do you guys have any thoughts on the new ZA OH, [Akil'zon's Talonblade]? It seems worse than the S2 Slicer (and I'm pretty unexperienced with the spreadsheet, so I don't know how to input its values).

It's funny... you rib the guy for mixing up his MH and OH swords, and you my friend just did the same... lol. The slicer is the MH and Quickblade is the OH. No big whoop.

Anyway, when I used the spreadsheet with my current gear (Talon in MH and MGQb in OH), I notice a drop in DPS. Not a huge drop, but some nonetheless.

The spreadsheet already supports hybrid builds such as mace/sword. It doesn't have the new mace spec in yet, but yes, that will be added for 2.3. However, it's still inferior; the increased critical damage, while nice, is simply not up to the part of sword and fist specs for PvE (though quite nice in PvP, as I understand it). Consider:

Say 40% of your attacks are crits. In practice, my crit rate is rarely that high, but lets go with it. That means that with 5/5 mace spec, 40% of your attacks will do an extra 10% of your base damage; hence you effectively gain 4% of your base damage per attack.

Fist Spec adds 100% of your base damage to 5% of attacks; hence, you effectively gain 5% of your base damage per attack.

Hence, even at 40% crit rate, fist spec is superior to mace spec. And to get crit rate even that high generally requires T6 quality gear (unless you're gimping yourself on hit/AP, anyway). And Maces have the added problem that the post-T5 itemization for them stinks; Dragonstrike is the best mace in the game. So, in the long run, swords are still the way to go.

Bah, I always get those confused. Fixed.

I have some numbers for that at home, which I'll post later this evening; my recollection is that it's a bit behind the Arena 2 OH in quality, but don't quote me on that until I check my numbers.

DPS. Please never use the words "top end" as if they referred to anything meaningful. Speed doesn't matter for white damage, only for Sinister Strike (due to weapon speed normalization), and 0.1 speed on a main hand is certainly not greater than 7 DPS (I believe I found it to be around 3 DPS, roughly), even if you factor in the stat difference.

Top end damage is meaningless. Average damage and damage per second are the only relevant stats. Since the Arena 3 MH has more DPS and higher average damage than Blade of Infamy, with comparable stats, it's not hard to see why it would be better.

Mind you, it's not better by a heck of a lot; we're talking maybe 15 AP relative to BoI and maybe 25 relative to Talon. So while it's definitely better, it's not "any rogue who isn't rated 1850 (or whatever it is) or higher in arena is gimped for PvE" better. It helps. But if you don't PvP, it's not that much of a disadvantage.

While we're on the topic: the reason slow weapons are better is not related to taking better advantage of AP on autoattacks; it's related to 1) higher average SS damage and 2) higher average Sword Spec/Windfury procs.

In a previous post you also said:
"Additionally, I did some hacks regarding the value of new mace spec, and while it's certainly a little stronger than it was before, it's not strong enough to actually matter - Dragonstrike is still weaker than the Arena 2 MHs, and Rod of the Sun King/Syphon of the Nathrezim are weaker still."

Would like to get some clarification on the matter of maces. According to the dps sheet(hell even according to yours :P) Dragonstrike is superior to both of them. Have I misread your first post when you stated that it is inferior to S2 MH Mace? Or did you mean S2 MH Sword?

Btw, while looking for the AP values for the maces I found that dragonstrike doesnt have any haste at all and, wierd, has 168 armor(=talon of azshara?). Same for dragonmaw :x

posts have pointed to fist/sword being a miniscule improvement over pure swords. is this not the case?

The haste procs are handled as procs rather than passive haste; hence, they're not listed as haste on the spreadsheet. They are being modeled though.

The 168 armor is a mistake, which will be fixed next revision.

When I said "The Arena 2 MHs" I was referring to the sword/fist in particular; the Arena 2 mace is, of course, worse still.

There's a lot of misinformation about this, and I've laid out my opinion in most of the relevant threads if you want to look for it, but the gist of it is this:

Assuming you had an otherwise identical talent spec, fist/sword would do comparable or just barely more damage than sword/sword assuming weapons of equal quality. However, in practice, you don't have an otherwise identical talent spec, and the talent points you lose cost you more damage than any benefit you may glean from the fist/sword combination; as such, while fist/sword is a viable alternative if you don't have a good MH sword, I can't think of any reason why one would actively choose to use fists while swords were available; as such, if you have the arena points to get a MH weapon, I can't think of any reason to select the fist over the sword, since it results in an overall spec that is inferior.