Rogue Gear Spreadsheet - Page 49

songster · 09/13/07, 3:15 AM

Originally Posted by dmw

- were the others right with there meanings of WF, that it is much much much better for non-dagger-rogues?

No. Up until the recent WF nerf, they would have been right. WF used to proc off instants, meaning that sword rogues get large heavy-hitting procs from their instants while dagger rogues get small procs.

That behaviour has now changed, and both builds should see similar benefits from WF. If anything, dagger rogues should see fractionally more benefit due to the (flat) AP bonus on the larger number of WF procs.

• Aldriana · 09/13/07, 3:32 AM

Originally Posted by dmw

- were the others right with there meanings of WF, that it is much much much better for non-dagger-rogues?

No. This used to be true, but since the WF hotfix, dagger rogues actually benefit just slightly more than sword rogues. It's all but equal, but if you want to be technical, dagger rogues do gain a bit more.

does dagger really is that bad in raids? i cannot believe this, because if i look to armory, I can find many rogues who are daggerspecced, even in BT/MH.. i also know, it is suboptimal for fights which has a shitload of movement, but THAT much? i don't get it why i was THIS far behind the others.

Dagger spec is pretty gimpy for raids, in general. That said, Hydross is actually a pretty good fight for dagger rogues, given that 2 of the 3 advantages of sword spec do not apply (see post 490 for details of my theory of how swords beat daggers). So while I'd expect sword rogues to beat dagger rogues on Hydross, it shouldn't be by the margin you seem to be finding.

If I had to guess, I would say that you're probably having positioning issues on the adds and are wasting energy trying to get it. It's also a common mistake to have SnD gaps with daggers while changing targets frequently. But past that, I couldn't say.

Allessa · 09/13/07, 9:48 AM

I'm a dagger rogue, although I only recently started to inform myself on thread such as this one, I was always instinctivly succesfull at beeing #1 or less then 0.5% from the #1.

On fight such as Hydross, I usually skip on doing Eviserate and just keep on doing backstab till I need to refresh SnD. Backstab crits at 30% more then eviserate and does more damage (since I don't have aggression and imp evis)

I never have WF even when I'm combat spec btw, so I guess I could be more efficient with it.

Mojofabulous · 09/13/07, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by songster

Current consensus fron testing on live and PTR is that there is no chance in PPM behaviour. Rather, PPM procs have always been normalised based on your current weapon speed, and the modelling has thus been wrong for the last two years on this point.

This kind of confused me. Where can I read through that discussion?

Stabmaster · 09/13/07, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by dmw

i've just been combat dagger for a few weeks, since I geht Vashj's Fang. from this point on, I really sucked at dps. I worked out the spreadsheed to get the optimal cycle to use. i did it there (boss only of course, trash is a other thing ^^), but I did about 3-5% less damage (#3 before (16-45 with dragonstrike + S2 OH-sword + both specs), #12 with daggers (classic 15-41-5). on tidewalker, lurker, karathress.. all nearly just as well to test dps as each other. equipment was nearly the same. spreadsheet told me just about 20 total dps less with daggers than with mace/sword.

Another question might be why are you #12 on DPS? I have no problem hitting #1. Do you have a WWS log? I am certain there is a lot of room for optimization here. Even when I had far worse gear I was at least in the top 5.

enno · 09/13/07, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mojofabulous

This kind of confused me. Where can I read through that discussion?

Proc Per Minute Mechanics & Haste

Mojofabulous · 09/13/07, 1:24 PM

Thanks, read through it. I guess I'm not sure how that affects us. If this has always been the face as the thread seems to suggest then why should it affect our dps at all. Or is it only affecting our theoretical spreadsheet dps based on an incorrect assumption(given that we were using haste rating items on that spreadsheet)?

• Aldriana · 09/13/07, 1:47 PM

It's not going to affect real DPS, as no mechanics change is actually being made. However, the spreadsheet models are going to need to be updated, which will change the relative value of certain stats and abilities.

Of note, the valuations in this spreadsheet will be affected in the following ways:

1)The power of all PPM effects will go down somewhat, including, notably: Dragonspine Trophy and Mongoose enchant (along with Madness of the Betrayer, BS maces, The Bladefist, Rod of the Sun King, etc.)

2) The value of haste rating will drop somewhat. Currently, the model is that haste rating increases both direct damage done, and also increases proc time which will increase damage further. With this change, haste rating will still increase the direct damage done but will *decrease* proc uptime, which will yield a smaller damage return.

In terms of actual in-game effects: I think the only difference is that if you're not using any flat +AP activated trinkets, it is now understood to be optimal to use AR separately from activated haste buffs (Blade Flurry, Heroism, Haste Pots, etc.) rather than at the same time. It's not going to make a *ton* of difference, but it'll buy you a little extra proc uptime.

• Vulajin · 09/13/07, 2:33 PM

I don't think you can say that haste rating will decrease proc uptime. I've been following that thread pretty closely myself, and I haven't seen any solid testing done on special attacks yet to indicate that they might suffer the same proc rate adjustment that white attacks do during haste effects. Hell, I'm not even 100% convinced yet that proc rates adjust with haste effects. There are still conflicting results and it's a bit early to conclude anything.

As far as how much it would affect our models if this turned out to be true -- well, in the case of DST, not actually very much. Using a model I cooked up in a spreadsheet of my own with my gear as the basis, DST uptime comes out to 27.85% if hastes increase PPM, and 23.43% if hastes don't increase PPM. Note that this assumes the 20-second internal cooldown from the upcoming patch.

The first number is calculated using the same method as your spreadsheet, by figuring a number of procs per second from the total number of attacks per second, then taking (Duration*PPS)/(Cooldown*PPS + 1). The second number was calculated by modifying the procs-per-second formula:

((1 - MHMiss - MHDodge) + (1 - OHMiss - OHDodge) + (1 - SPMiss - SPDodge) * MHSpeed / SPSpeed) / 60

This assumes DST is 1 PPM, regardless of the speed of your attacks. Thus, you get 1 PPM from your main hand times the fraction of MH attacks that actually land, plus the same from your offhand. Finally, from special attacks that land, you get 1 PPM times the ratio of main hand [base] speed to special attack speed (for this you need to know approximately how often, in seconds, you perform specials). Then divide by 60 to get procs-per-second.

---

If it weren't for the internal cooldown, the effect would be larger, I suppose. I repeated the same calculation for Mongoose (in the middle of typing up this post) and the main hand's Mongoose uptime was reduced from 46% to 25%. The loss of agility is approximately 25.

(edit) Oops, screwed up that Mongoose calc. It actually went down to 35%, with a drop of about 13 agility. Still rough when combined with the effect on the OH. Still, if that thread is to be believed, it's not like these are nerfs going in...we've just been modeling it wrong all along.

(edit 2) Perhaps I've royally screwed something up, but it really doesn't look like the effect is that big. After completely redoing the calculations in my spreadsheet, my DPS decreased from 1415.02 to 1397.02 (a difference of 18).

• Aldriana · 09/13/07, 2:51 PM

It is too early to say for certain that it will decrease the proc rate, as it's uncertain what it will do to instant attacks. However, I would be pretty darn surorised if we don't ultimately find that haste does, in fact, reduce the chance of your instant attacks to proc, given the rest of the data in that thread. I could be wrong, but that would be my expectation. Guess we need someone to do some no-autoattack, instant-attack-only testing with and without haste rating.

As for the rest: sure, maybe Dragonspine only drops from 28% to 24%. That's still a 15% reduction in the power of the proc, which, coupled with the haste nerf and the internal cooldown, will bring it much closer to in line with existing trinkets. Which, I agree, is not a bad thing, necessarily - it's silly when you have BT rogues still needing to farm Gruul to gear up. But it is worth knowing that the power of these procs is lower than the current model predicts, since that is going to have effects on both the value of haste rating and hit rating.

dmw · 09/13/07, 3:12 PM

Originally Posted by Stabmaster

Another question might be why are you #12 on DPS? I have no problem hitting #1. Do you have a WWS log? I am certain there is a lot of room for optimization here. Even when I had far worse gear I was at least in the top 5.

Unfurtunately I have no WWS log. I just use Recount for my own, no combatlog which I can uplaod.

With non-dagger spec the damage is ok, I hit there #5, even w/o WF and BS. I was just a bit confused about my low damage I do with daggers... if I'm dagger again sometimes I will post again if my damage sucks again then, but for sure I'm mace/sword the next time. =)

baldycenarius · 09/13/07, 4:14 PM

The only thing that conflicts in the haste and PPM thread is my fiery test, it could simply mean fiery is based on a set %procrate rather then PPM. I dont have the time to get on the PTR and spend 2 hours beating on mobs again to see if thats changed, as it seems plenty of other tests would suggest other results anyway.

• Vulajin · 09/13/07, 4:30 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

It is too early to say for certain that it will decrease the proc rate, as it's uncertain what it will do to instant attacks. However, I would be pretty darn surorised if we don't ultimately find that haste does, in fact, reduce the chance of your instant attacks to proc, given the rest of the data in that thread. I could be wrong, but that would be my expectation. Guess we need someone to do some no-autoattack, instant-attack-only testing with and without haste rating.

As for the rest: sure, maybe Dragonspine only drops from 28% to 24%. That's still a 15% reduction in the power of the proc, which, coupled with the haste nerf and the internal cooldown, will bring it much closer to in line with existing trinkets. Which, I agree, is not a bad thing, necessarily - it's silly when you have BT rogues still needing to farm Gruul to gear up. But it is worth knowing that the power of these procs is lower than the current model predicts, since that is going to have effects on both the value of haste rating and hit rating.

I, on the other hand, feel like it would make more sense that the proc rate on instant attacks weren't modified by haste procs. However, that's what experimentation is for.

In the meantime, what I can do is to compare the two models and see what the difference really is. So I've been heavily refining my spreadsheet over the course of the day to bring it in line with the theory that haste does not change the effective PPM of a PPM-based proc. After all my modifications, I equip a Dragonspine Trophy in place of my Bloodlust Brooch (in reality, I don't have a DST, but this is just for the sake of argument). My DPS is given as 1362.45.

Now, I modify the spreadsheet to assume that special attacks suffer a penalty to their proc rate on PPM enchants while under the influence of haste effects. I check my DPS again. It is down to 1357.14.

For the sake of argument, I now equip a Shadow-Walker's Cord in place of Socrethar's Girdle. My DPS now increases to 1375.64 (if special attacks aren't penalized, it's 1381.06). Then I swap in a Belt of One-Hundred Deaths and it increases to 1376.83 (1381.64). Belt of Deep Shadow makes it 1376.42 (1381.23).

In the end, I don't think there's actually that much of a difference whether you model it with special attacks getting penalized or not. Obviously we want to be as accurate as possible with our models, so it will be nice to know for sure, but all in all the total error is not that major.

• Aldriana · 09/13/07, 4:52 PM

I agree that it doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of difference in terms of DPS; however, even small net changes in DPS can have significant effects on stat weighting. Consider, for example, the discussion I give of inaccuracies of the original rogue spreadsheet in post 619. The basis of my argument was that in practice one had 210 more available energy than the sheet was modeling for over the course of a 7 minute fight.

Now, in terms of actual DPS, 210 energy is 3.5 backstabs, so maybe 4k total damage. Which, over a 7 minute fight, is under 10 DPS - barely over 1%, and not a big deal. So in terms of estimating your actual damage output, it was fine.

However, consider the effect on the value of, say, a talent point in lethality under this change. Since Lethality only affects your yellow damage, the amount of damage you get from a point in Lethality increases by 5% when you move from the spreadsheet model to the real scenario. Meanwhile, a talent point in, say, precision, still yields exactly the same amount of damage either way, while the value of a talent point in, say, murder, is going to increase by about 2%. So even though ones overall damage changed by barely 1%, the relative value of stats can easily change by up to 5% in this example. Now, admittedly, 5% still isn't a *lot*, but when you consider that, for instance, the value of agi and hit will be within 10% of each other after the Dragonspine nerf, suddenly changes on the order of 5% look like they could really change what your optimal gear is, even if they don't directly affect your damage that much.

I admit this is to some extent splitting hairs, but I do think it's important to note that even reasonably small differences in damage can signify larger changes in equipment selection.

Mojofabulous · 09/13/07, 4:59 PM

Doesn't it matter very little? Even if instants aren't affected by the normalization...doesn't that only significantly change items like say.....warp-spring coil(even then it shouldn't)? If an item has an internal cooldown and a PPM the few extra instant attacks in the midst of all the auto attacks shouldn't hold that large a part of whether a PPM procs faster or slower. I guess maybe something like a heroic strike could be affected...but a sinister strike has nothing to do with haste rating other than combat potency procs.

If I'm flat wrong here please do tell!