Rogue Gear Spreadsheet - Page 53

Mojofabulous · 09/17/07, 8:48 PM

yea sorry, when I screenshot a good fight's dps, I usually include the dmg breakdown from my recount, not sure why I didn't this time. I should get in the habit of combatlogging my stuff more often.

• Aldriana · 09/17/07, 8:53 PM

A quick followup on the topic of heroism (and Blood Lust, but since I'm alliance, I'm going to use the term "Heroism" throughout), which relates both to my previous post and the earlier discourse on belts:

I have performed some rough estimates on the effects of heroism, and here is what I've concluded:

a) Heroism is a reasonable source of damage output; in particular, each heroism increases the dps estimate by around 20-25 DPS, depending on your gear level. So if, for instance, you got a one heroism in an 8 minute fight, that by itself would account for nearly 1/3 of the difference between the sheet and your actual measurement.

b) However, despite the contributions to DPS, Heroism and Haste Pots do not overwhelmingly increase the value of hit; in particular, even with drinking a Haste Pot every 2 minutes, and getting 3 heroisms in a 5 minute fight (which is about the upper limit on reasonable number of heroism to include), Belt of One Hundred Deaths pulls ahead of Don Alejandro's by less than 2 AP, although it does put Glinting gems back ahead of Delicate ones. Hence, I'm of the opinion that the earlier analysis regarding interrupted fights and roundoff threshholds still stands, and that the benefits of Heroism is insufficient to outweigh them. Your mileage may vary, of course, but, personally, barring significant new findings in the realm of weapon skill behavior, I'm inclined to say that I would rather have Don Alejandro's than the Vashj belt as my endgame belt.

Grunge · 09/17/07, 11:35 PM

Don Alejandro's? Are you using weighted?

Edit: Must be it. Using weighted shows Don Alejandro's somewhat behind of Vashj belt, while using offensive Vashj belt leaves Don Alejandro's in the dust. I'd go with either Vashj, Deep Shadows or Shadow-walker's for my endgame gear choices at least.
Stamina counts for that much with Don Alejandro's & weighted I guess?

I'd love Alejandro's for pvp though.

• Aldriana · 09/18/07, 12:04 AM

There's enough fights where there's general AoE damage that I think it's a mistake to discount stamina entirely - while DPS is certainly more important, there clearly exist some amount of DPS that's worth trading for stamina (as a simple example: given the choice betwen 1 AP or 100 sta, which would you take?). And, personally, given a choice between 2.5 DPS and 120 HP, it seems to me that there's a reasonable case to be made for the 120 HP. Again: some of you will certainly disagree, and that's fine. But I'll just say: the weighted total option is in the sheet (and is the default) for a reason. And that reason is that I believe there is some value in that stamina.

koaschten · 09/18/07, 1:40 AM

Aldriana, dont over-estimate Stamina in endgame, i easily run ~10k unbuffed and i should get another 1k once i get rid of my kara boots and cape and get a decent non-t5 belt

. At that point i plainly ignore stamina on gear running the pure dps variant of your sheet.

• Aldriana · 09/18/07, 1:58 AM

It's true, though I would note that the amount of sta you have in end SSC/TK gear is not really adequate for much of MH/BT... and the point of gearing in end-BT gear is to get ready for Sunwell Plateau, which is an unknown entity at this stage - it could very well be that 10k unbuffed HP (which is about what my ideal gear winds up with) is only marginally adequate for Sunwell.

But, yeah, you have a valid point in that MH/BT do tend to be somewhat more sta-heavy than gear in previous instances, and running up around 10k by the end of it is pretty straightforward. But I still maintain that 2.5 DPS (or less) for 120 stamina is not exactly an unreasonable tradeoff even if you already have quite a bit of sta already.

Again: DPS is certainly more important. Which is why Sta isn't weighted very heavily (1 sta = .6 AP, meaning something like 1 dps = 3-4 sta). And while a case could probably be made to lower that further, I'm not sure I buy that it should go to zero.

Mojofabulous · 09/18/07, 2:26 AM

I think you should change the phrasing "weighted" to "less-stressfull". I think that would be more accurate :-p

An argument can be made for both sides which is why the option is up to the user to choose weighted, offensive, or defensive. Up until a week or so ago I was rockin 8300 hp while another rogue in the raid had like 10,500hp. I'd sure as heck be more comfortable at 10,500. I just run in to a lot more: "OH SHIZ!" situations and as such have to be super carefull about the places I put myself in.

I'm dying to get more stamina though, wtb some actual tier pieces, kara loot in hyjal/bt ftl.

koaschten · 09/18/07, 3:42 AM

The only place where you really need HP is, if your pitcher at Naj'Entus doesnt stay in a perfect 60 seconds cycle so you can cloak every shield explosion. Thats where you need hp. To be exact, enough to survive 8k instant damage.

edit: But we are getting badly off-topic.... no Patch this week i'd say....

• Aldriana · 09/18/07, 3:51 AM

Naj'entus is the only place where you strictly *need* HP, to be sure (other than Mother, where you're in half SR gear which changes the equation dramatically anyway). But there are a fair number of fights where having more HP gives you a nice cushion and makes life easier on your healers - Azgalor, instance. Odds are you're gonna get a Rain of Fire you can't cloak at some point, and every HP you have makes your healer's job that much easier. Is it strictly necessary? No. But it's a nice cushion. And, as I say, who knows what Sunwell Plateau will bring.

Regarding patch: there was a blue post on US forums this afternoon that confirmed no patch.

koaschten · 09/18/07, 4:06 AM

uuh well depends on Azgalor Tactics i guess, we have a strict NO melee on Azgalor but on the Doomguards rule.... topic the meters anyway

Conq[SUN] · 09/18/07, 5:08 AM

Very nice sheet!
Have one request though.
I'm trying to put in the items I currently have and find that I need more sockets on some slots.
Thought it would be a good idea to have at least 2 sockets for all slots.

Right now i'm only in need of 2 for necks though.

koaschten · 09/18/07, 5:13 AM

Only Item i can think off that has 2 sockets on a neck slot is "Necklage of the Deep". And that in particular is a bad dps item itself. Get the "Worgen Claw Necklace" or the one for heroic tokens.
Letting us know the items you have issues with would help though, as i doubt you try to run your retribution paladin through this spreadsheet.

Conq[SUN] · 09/18/07, 6:50 AM

hehe. No I'm not trying to tailor it for my Protection paladin (in my super attackpower primal grinding gear).

But on to the question. I have an old rogue I dug up and is trying to level (Armory) so I try and modify the sheet to lower level gear and so. I know it's not quite aqurate on anything other than level 70, but I like to try and optimize and do the calculation.

Necklace of the Deep as you guessed seems quite superb especially at level 65 and would like to see just how superb.

The reason I ask for the other slots was that it might be easier to just add some extra once and for all.

koaschten · 09/18/07, 7:13 AM

Have a look at this LIST for necklaces.

And considering the socket number question on items, i _believe_ they are limited on an item slot base and Ald is matching those limits already. at least i havent seen bracer with 3 sockets yet :X

Conq[SUN] · 09/18/07, 7:33 AM

Nice list. Never thought of filtering by excluding stats.

The socket thing. I just remember there was the same situation when [Vengeance Wrap] got a socket.

Another question. Shouldn't I be able to use row 11 from the DamageCalcs sheet as kind of comparison values? I was thinking of plotting them into the mod Pawn for fast comparison of items.