Ahh okay thanks. And typoed up there, 8agi, 4agi 6stam, not hit
Hard to find an item worth socketing with blue btw... well i have bloodsea, but the second blue for ReD has to go in t5 shoulders..

Hey Aldriana

I am fairly new to your sheet as I was using the sheet originally made by PF. I was wondering , what exactly does the numbers in your sheet next to each item represent?

Example:

Glyph of Ferocity 70.99
Thundering Skyfire Diamond 47.32
Shifting Nightseye (4agi/6sta) 12.12

Those numbers are APEP, or AP equivalence points, the value of the item translated into straight up AP, or in the case of the comparisons the difference in values. Ald uses APEP as opposed to AEP, agi equivalence points, because agi has other benifits such as armor and dodge that make AEP slightly inaccurate, or hard to calculate accuratly (How do you compare the + armor and dodge from agi to + crit rating?).

I have been using this spreadsheet now for several weeks and have found it most useful. For that I offer thanks to everyone who has contributed to it.

Several posts back, Aldriana elicited suggestions and perhaps I have one. My understanding is that WoW truncates values such as 12.5% to 12%. If this is correct, I think it would be beneficial to list the total hit and/or crit percentages from talents and rating since it may be, in a situation wherein one is not expecting immanent changes, to socket a different gem to pass a percentage milestone. If I cannot get from 12.5% to 13%, would it not be better to socket straight agi for AP or crit to perhaps go from 22.8% to more than 23%.

If this is beneficial and easy to do, I would appreciate it. If I am incorrect in my assumption, please correct me.

I believe only weapon skill is truncated, and I assume the new expertise. Like if you got weapon skill rating that translate to 6.4 weapon skill, you'll only be effectively using 6 weapon skill.

Yes, crit %, hit %, pretty much everything except weapon skill, defense, and the upcoming expertise are not truncated.

Thanks for the clarification.

(I figured out my problem, Adriana, thanks...)

Is there a bug with the way off-hand optimals are displayed? I currently don't have a real off-hand dagger (I'm using Blade of Unrequited Love until I get one). The blade is being calculated as 934, in contrast to better off-hands like Gladiator's Shiv (486). My new overall rough DPS changes appropriately when I swap the blade out for the shiv (it goes from 641 to 651), but the value in the off-hand row doesn't reflect that shift. I assume it's because the value for off-hands is being calculated off the same system as mainhands (and in fact, the blade is 918 in the main-hand slot).

Well, my first observation would be that Blade of the Unrequited isn't in the spreadsheet by default, so you (or someone) must have added it at some point; given which, I have three possible theories:

1) Blade of the Unrequited is socketed, unlike all the weapons in the sheet by default. I make no claims to the quality of the weapon-socketing algorithms; Darlal implemented it originally, and I haven't touched it since; hence a) I can't vouch that it worked in the first place, and b) I can't vouch that I haven't screwed it up since. Thus, it's possible that there's some sort of bug with the weapon-socketing.

2) All the existing OH daggers in the sheet are either speed 1.3 or 1.4; it's entirely possible that the calculation method I used screws up somehow when used with a slower weapon like Blade of the Unrequited (1.6). It's certainly the case that even if I got the calculations right, the resulting values will be less accurate due to nonlinearities in the value of weapon skill

3) Alternately, it could simply be that whoever added it to the sheet simply copied the MH weapon scoring function rather than the OH scoring function while adding it and, as such, it's being scored by a different (and incorrect) formula.

Without knowing how it was added, I can't tell you which of the above is correct. But my guess would be the third.

Okay, when we were adding the socketing algorithms I built in the *possibility* of socketed weapons, but I don't remember fully implementing them. It's really not easy to add them in, so I wouldn't suggest doing so. That being said, you could always just pretend you have 3 more sockets elsewhere. When there are some great socketed weapons, it'll have to be fully flushed out.

Aldriana said we shouldn't expect another version of the sheet before Thanksgiving but I'd really like to be able to switch out pieces of gear and compare hit and ap. The current hit stat is obviously already implemented. I tried to add ap to the Talents_Equipment page locally but was unsuccessful. This is what I attempted to use:

=AAP+Wap+TAP+EAP+GAP+Aagi+Wagi+EAGI+GAgi

I seem to be missing a few things. Does anyone know what I'd need to use to show the AP of the current gear (without raid buffs)?

Greetings Ald. Let me start with the mandatory introduction thanking you for your work and pointing out how awesome you are.

Now onto questions. I was wondering about endgame gemming, more specific about the good ol` debate about the value of hit versus agility and considering now is one better versus the other in ideal situation or interrupted fights (majority of them).

Thing is, i am at the point where i just started to get my BT loot and i was wandering how to gem it to get the most out of it.

I could use 10hit gems and easily reach 300hit (by using the Ashtongue talisman, since VR never dropped WSC)

On the other hand i could use 5agi/5hit gems in most of the slots and get something like 258 hit rating granting me a bit more agility (crit, ap, etc etc).

Let me just point out that money belt is gonna be my endgame belt (i just LOVE the stamina i get from it) and i just got insidious bands (yay for me) what basically motivated me to write this post. Gems are not an issue as we tend o loot loads of yellow and a fair amount of orange ones.

Your thoughts?

You could you know.. download the spreadsheet and plug in your gear.. That is sort of what its there for - answering questions like "is X better than Y"?

Just a thought.

I think ultimately this comes down to a matter of personal preference. The first thing I'd note is that there's really no wrong answer here, since the difference between socketing everything with 5agi/5hit and socketing everything with 10 hit is typically well under 1% of your DPS in a raid setting (for instance, with my current gear/buffs, the difference is roughly 5 DPS out of 1500). So either way you choose is not going to make a huge difference to your raid DPS.

On the whole, the tradeoff is between a small amount of DPS on sustained fights versus some dodge and a speculative amount of damage on interrupted fights. Since there isn't really a good model of interrupted fights (yet), it's really hard to say what the exact damage tradeoff is; so, ultimately, we're all just guessing.

In terms of what my best guess is as to which is better: I personally lean towards 5agi/5hit over 10 hit. I don't really have any numbers to support this, so don't quote me on it; but that's my best guess for the moment.

And you sir could read my post prior to b***h about. And just to put this behind us; i get about 8 DPS difference according to spreadsheet gemming pure hit versus agi/hit.

@ Ald: Thanks for the answer. I`ve decided to go all out on agi/hit and to keep my hit 250-ish as a result. Another thing. In a recent post you said there is a point when you get your gear to a certain level that you could gem pure agility, therefore adjust your rotation to 5s/5r to gain a benefit. Since i am leaning towards agility somehow lately (please understand i was a hit-junkie not so long ago) was thinking to go 5s/5r already with the current gear. Spreadsheet suggest 3.3s/5r. I know the difference should be minimal but lets say i want to get the best possible out of my gear for the sake of the argument.

I tried looking into the impact +hit rating has beyond 308 in 2.3 with the latest 0.8.0 spreadsheet. I assumed it would be sufficient to spec out of weapon expertise with a standard combat sword spec to see some results.

Sadly it was not. While already having ~320 hit rating, adding a 10 hitrating gem which was set to "none" before doesnt increase dps.

Anything obvious i missed here Aldriana?

That sort of question is better answered in the Roguecraft 101 thread. From the first post:

Note that Mangle only improves Rupture from the numbers posted here.

That explains alot. Ty for the clarification

I'm pretty sure I mentioned this somewhere before, but, if I didn't: I never implemented the steep nonlinearity in the value of weapon skill in this sheet and just used .1% hit per point even for the first 5; hence, simply removing it from a build doesn't actually knock your miss rate up to 28%. The reason for this is that including something so nonlinear would, at times, cause serious scoring difficulties for some items, so I decided to keep the scoring more or less consistant and let the damage estimates be off in low weapon skill situations.

To actually get 28% base miss, one would need to go to lines 70 and 74 of each calculation sheet and change the 25.5 to a 28.

Note, however, that this will not account for the fact that your dodged rate will be lower than modeled by the sheet, so answers derived directly from that won't be wholly accurate either.

I kind of ignored your paragraph about the modeled dodge rate and went overboard implementing weapon expertise skill into my local version.

Cycle sheets:
row 70+74, replace all 0,1 with 0 to remove the +hit associated with weapon skill (pulled from row 64+65), replace all 25,5 with 28 to account for the new hit cap
row 71+74, replace all 0,04 with 0,25 to account for the dodge reduction

This does not account for the racials yet (e.g. humans gain 1% crit instead of weapon expertise in 2.3), for now simply dont select a human, which isnt a problem for horde players

I added some 2.3 gear either and could upload the version. If its ok i will link to it Aldriana.

added:
Interesting observations of the change is for example that [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] are becoming the 3rd best shoulders, they gain a 28EAP from the change.
[Cloak of Fiends] is right on top there within 10EAP of the Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape. [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] will either see a nerf, or it will be really overpowered, a hefty 30+ EAP in front of anything else. For all those who a dying for a pair of Shadowmaster's Boots, you can stop by the heroic vendor and grab a pair of [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots]. Both pairs are within 1 EAP which makes it only a question of either running heroics or drop luck to get a best in slot pair of boots. [Signet of Primal Wrath] places itself nicely between the drop from Akama and Illidan. On the trinket slots not much changed, it's still Dragonspine Trophy + Warp-spring Coil / Madness of the Betrayer / BT Class trinket. On the weapon Slots though Arena S3 gear is the undoubted winner... unless you sport legendaries.

I haven't seen [Cloak of Fiends] before, is it a Zul'Aman / Badge item? Wowhead, and Thottbot dont seem to have a source for where it comes from. (Sorry for the slight derail.)

That's the first I've seen of it too - anyone have additional information about the Cloak of Fiends?