I noticed in the spread sheet 2/2 Murder is supposed to give more dps than 2 or ever 3 points in Vile Poisons. But, I am curious how much does murder apply to bosses in Hyjal and BT?
From what I can tell there aren't any bosses in Hyjal it would apply to (as they are all demons except for rage who is undead?) and only a handful in BT that would be considered Humanoid.
What Im getting at is Vile Poisons used more by rogues in Hyjal/BT over murder? or do most people still stick with 2/2 murder?
I noticed in the spread sheet 2/2 Murder is supposed to give more dps than 2 or ever 3 points in Vile Poisons. But, I am curious how much does murder apply to bosses in Hyjal and BT?
From what I can tell there aren't any bosses in Hyjal it would apply to (as they are all demons except for rage who is undead?) and only a handful in BT that would be considered Humanoid.
What Im getting at is Vile Poisons used more by rogues in Hyjal/BT over murder? or do most people still stick with 2/2 murder?
Since no bosses in Hyjal and only 2 bosses in BT (that I can think of right now) are affected by murder, Vile Poisons would be the talent of choice.
I kind of ignored your paragraph about the modeled dodge rate and went overboard implementing weapon expertise skill into my local version.
Cycle sheets:
row 70+74, replace all 0,1 with 0 to remove the +hit associated with weapon skill (pulled from row 64+65), replace all 25,5 with 28 to account for the new hit cap
row 71+74, replace all 0,04 with 0,25 to account for the dodge reduction
This does not account for the racials yet (e.g. humans gain 1% crit instead of weapon expertise in 2.3), for now simply dont select a human, which isnt a problem for horde players
I added some 2.3 gear either and could upload the version. If its ok i will link to it Aldriana.
added:
Interesting observations of the change is for example that [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] are becoming the 3rd best shoulders, they gain a 28EAP from the change. [Cloak of Fiends] is right on top there within 10EAP of the Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape. [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] will either see a nerf, or it will be really overpowered, a hefty 30+ EAP in front of anything else. For all those who a dying for a pair of Shadowmaster's Boots, you can stop by the heroic vendor and grab a pair of [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots]. Both pairs are within 1 EAP which makes it only a question of either running heroics or drop luck to get a best in slot pair of boots. [Signet of Primal Wrath] places itself nicely between the drop from Akama and Illidan. On the trinket slots not much changed, it's still Dragonspine Trophy + Warp-spring Coil / Madness of the Betrayer / BT Class trinket. On the weapon Slots though Arena S3 gear is the undoubted winner... unless you sport legendaries.
So, if you want to link it as an unofficial version, you're welcome to do so. If you want me to look it over first, I can, but as I'm currently sick, it's going to be sometime Saturday before I have a chance to do so.
Originally Posted by ninjabrick
Since no bosses in Hyjal and only 2 bosses in BT (that I can think of right now) are affected by murder, Vile Poisons would be the talent of choice.
4 bosses in BT, actually; Naj'entus, Akama, Gurtogg, and Council. Doesn't change the underlying point though, namely: while Murder is pretty useful in the T5 instances, it's value drops pretty dramatically in the T6 instances.
That said, SS rogues tend to take it anyway for lack of anything better as a prereq to lethality/relentless strikes. Dagger rogues, on the other hand, have better things to be taking.
So, if you want to link it as an unofficial version, you're welcome to do so. If you want me to look it over first, I can, but as I'm currently sick, it's going to be sometime Saturday before I have a chance to do so.
I've dropped you a PM.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
4 bosses in BT, actually; Naj'entus, Akama, Gurtogg, and Council. Doesn't change the underlying point though, namely: while Murder is pretty useful in the T5 instances, it's value drops pretty dramatically in the T6 instances.
That said, SS rogues tend to take it anyway for lack of anything better as a prereq to lethality/relentless strikes. Dagger rogues, on the other hand, have better things to be taking.
And you shouldnt forget, though we mostly optimize dps for bosses, there is a heck of humanoid trash in BT, aswell as Aldriana pointed out .. there isnt a much better filler to take for sword combat anyway.
Katherine, do you have a source drop for the Cloak of Fiends? Or just grabbed it from the "New in 2.3" off of Wowhead - which is the only place I've seen it.
Katherine, do you have a source drop for the Cloak of Fiends? Or just grabbed it from the "New in 2.3" off of Wowhead - which is the only place I've seen it.
Grabbed it from the roguecraft 101 thread. But the fact that its new and ilvl128 you can be 90% sure its from one of the 4 aspect bosses in Zul'Aman.
I don't understand why the S3 offhand would be considered better than Savagery. I've always been under the impression that for every .1 decrease in weapon speed you gain ~10 dps because of combat potency. Add to that the extra 7hit rating, 1 crit rating and 10ap vs S3's extra 2.6dps and 49 armor reduction and I fail to see why you make the argument that S3 is better.
Based off of the damage calculations on the spreadsheet the following AP values for each weapon's additional total stats(including the armor reduction) are:
Savagery: 115.85
S3: 106.28
That will vary some based on every individual's gear, but I can't see the changes being so dramatic that it would outweigh the value of the reduced weapon speed on savagery.
Second, I recently got [Madness of the Betrayer] and have to choose between [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] and [Tsunami Talisman]. Obviously for uninterrupted combat the Ashtongue trinket comes out on top of Tsunami. My question is how much effectiveness it loses on trash and start/stop boss combat. My gut tells me that tsunami is a better choice for trash and non-continuous boss fights. Anyone have to make a similar choice?
Within the Hemo Inflection Thread, it was surmissed that a 11/21/29 would be one of the better builds for 2.3.
Since this build does not include a Weapon Specialization nor a real Weapon Speed Requirement as long as DP stacks are kept up by the OH, what kind of OH would you use in conjunction with a ToA, DragonStrike, or Syphon? Would you keep with the previous OH you had acquired before respeccing or would you acquire a OH with a proc.
Would the Trash Mace from BT/Hyjal be sufficient or would a [Heartrazor] be a solid choice cause of the proc?
Could you maybe delve outside the variant and OH a slower weapon not meant to be OH'd and with enough passive haste on gear, keep a stack of DP up sacrificing hit.
I've been racking my brain over different options i could test with and maybe try to get solid numbers. If i go into a weapon spec for weapon expertise, all this is mute and i have my OH already.
Edit: I think i had the word OH in there too many times, sorry.
Within the Hemo Inflection Thread, it was surmissed that a 11/21/29 would be one of the better builds for 2.3.
Since this build does not include a Weapon Specialization nor a real Weapon Speed Requirement as long as DP stacks are kept up by the OH, what kind of OH would you use in conjunction with a ToA, DragonStrike, or Syphon? Would you keep with the previous OH you had acquired before respeccing or would you acquire a OH with a proc.
Would the Trash Mace from BT/Hyjal be sufficient or would a [Heartrazor] be a solid choice cause of the proc?
Could you maybe delve outside the variant and OH a slower weapon not meant to be OH'd and with enough passive haste on gear, keep a stack of DP up sacrificing hit.
I've been racking my brain over different options i could test with and maybe try to get solid numbers. If i go into a weapon spec for weapon expertise, all this is mute and i have my OH already.
Edit: I think i had the word OH in there too many times, sorry.
I'm currently using a Tracker's Blade, as Fist Spec, I have an extra 2 points in Dagger spec to boost the damage, but it really is THE BEST dagger in the game, and possibly the best offhand as well. The stats are just OP (1.5 speed, 100.3 dps, 20 hit, 23 crit, 44 ap).
I been thinking about it and if the [Fang of Vashj] drops again, that would be my offhand. The expertise is too valuable and would help increase my rating since i wont have points far enough into the Combat Tree
Note: Not arguing, looking for perspective from Aldriana/Shaker/other TCers.
Just recently, I received the Deathmantle Handguards, and managed to put the final nail in the coffin of my 2pc Netherblade bonus (Engineering Hat, T5 Gloves and Shoulders, Bloodsea Brigand's vest, and if I ever stop being a cheap bastard I'll toss some cobrahide leather armor onto my Skulker's Greaves, or pick up the T5 leggings since rogues are probably going to be guaranteed the next several drops of them since we've been passing to all the paladins/shamans, and in some cases even paladin or shaman offspecs.
Now, we're currently *working* on Vashj, which means that the 4pc bonus is probably not in my very near future, as I would need to pick up both the legs and the hat in our first couple kills before we go into hardcore kael attempts.
In any event, rupture is strictly superior to eviscerate in ideal circumstances. Ideal circumstances being defined as being high Time-on-Target or availability of target to attack, vulnerability to rupture, one target with high HP, with little switching between adds.
In T5 content, that means... Morogrim, more or less. Also Vashj, at least for P1 and P3, depending on whether you're playing with elementals (as backup) or Nagas (sometimes). Vashj is a special case anyway, because the Nagas and Elementals are level 72 (??) and thus less hit rating is required in general, so it might be optimal to scale your gear differently?
To get to the main point: A valuation of 0 AP to the T5 2pc bonus doesn't seem entirely fair.
Al'ar: P1 Add DPS, rupture uptime not optimal due to the impossibility of predicting flame quill. P2: Using up spare CP before meteor.
Solarian: Adds/priests, and very low armor P1, as well as the desirability of blowing CPs on extra damage before the split.
VR: Immune to rupture, moot point.
Hydross: Immune poison
Lurker: Eh, depends, you might want to blow an SnD before the submerge to have extra DPS for the adds, but again, rupture isn't entirely optimal given low HP adds, etc.
Morogrim: Rupture reigns supreme, 90% + Time On Target.
Leo: Rupture reigns supreme, aggro sensitivity, especially to burst aggro, and periodic aggro wipes, with a low time on target that actually manages to reward having periodic damage up, but eviscerate can get your demons down more quickly if you can gen CP. Still, rupture wins due to WW and other random garbage.
FLK: Rupture but if the totems had just a little bit more health, it'd be evisc. Also depends on whether you blade flurry shaman/hunter together, in which case that initial evisc/envenom would be superior.
So, at least at the current point in my progression, valuing the T5 bonus at 0 seems to be a bit odd.
Essentially, because of the 50AP weighting to the 2pc T4 bonus, it looks like wearing T4 shoulders over T5 would be the better choice (since I don't have the T4 hat). My experience would seem to suggest otherwise, as would initial experimentation (and the fact that I need to get back into the habit of using a 3s/5r cycle).
Any thoughts on a "prospective" valuation of the T5 bonus under those circumstances? If it was as little as even 25AP, it would be worth maintaining the 2pc T5 bonus over downgrading any individual piece of gear from its current piece for the sake of gaining back the T4 bonus. 30-35AP, given the nature of the fights we're currently running across, seems entirely reasonable.
Anyone else have "gut feelings" on the matter at hand?
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.
Note: Not arguing, looking for perspective from Aldriana/Shaker/other TCers.
Just recently, I received the Deathmantle Handguards, and managed to put the final nail in the coffin of my 2pc Netherblade bonus (Engineering Hat, T5 Gloves and Shoulders, Bloodsea Brigand's vest, and if I ever stop being a cheap bastard I'll toss some cobrahide leather armor onto my Skulker's Greaves, or pick up the T5 leggings since rogues are probably going to be guaranteed the next several drops of them since we've been passing to all the paladins/shamans, and in some cases even paladin or shaman offspecs.
Now, we're currently *working* on Vashj, which means that the 4pc bonus is probably not in my very near future, as I would need to pick up both the legs and the hat in our first couple kills before we go into hardcore kael attempts.
In any event, rupture is strictly superior to eviscerate in ideal circumstances. Ideal circumstances being defined as being high Time-on-Target or availability of target to attack, vulnerability to rupture, one target with high HP, with little switching between adds.
In T5 content, that means... Morogrim, more or less. Also Vashj, at least for P1 and P3, depending on whether you're playing with elementals (as backup) or Nagas (sometimes). Vashj is a special case anyway, because the Nagas and Elementals are level 72 (??) and thus less hit rating is required in general, so it might be optimal to scale your gear differently?
To get to the main point: A valuation of 0 AP to the T5 2pc bonus doesn't seem entirely fair.
Al'ar: P1 Add DPS, rupture uptime not optimal due to the impossibility of predicting flame quill. P2: Using up spare CP before meteor.
Solarian: Adds/priests, and very low armor P1, as well as the desirability of blowing CPs on extra damage before the split.
VR: Immune to rupture, moot point.
Hydross: Immune poison
Lurker: Eh, depends, you might want to blow an SnD before the submerge to have extra DPS for the adds, but again, rupture isn't entirely optimal given low HP adds, etc.
Morogrim: Rupture reigns supreme, 90% + Time On Target.
Leo: Rupture reigns supreme, aggro sensitivity, especially to burst aggro, and periodic aggro wipes, with a low time on target that actually manages to reward having periodic damage up, but eviscerate can get your demons down more quickly if you can gen CP. Still, rupture wins due to WW and other random garbage.
FLK: Rupture but if the totems had just a little bit more health, it'd be evisc. Also depends on whether you blade flurry shaman/hunter together, in which case that initial evisc/envenom would be superior.
So, at least at the current point in my progression, valuing the T5 bonus at 0 seems to be a bit odd.
Essentially, because of the 50AP weighting to the 2pc T4 bonus, it looks like wearing T4 shoulders over T5 would be the better choice (since I don't have the T4 hat). My experience would seem to suggest otherwise, as would initial experimentation (and the fact that I need to get back into the habit of using a 3s/5r cycle).
Any thoughts on a "prospective" valuation of the T5 bonus under those circumstances? If it was as little as even 25AP, it would be worth maintaining the 2pc T5 bonus over downgrading any individual piece of gear from its current piece for the sake of gaining back the T4 bonus. 30-35AP, given the nature of the fights we're currently running across, seems entirely reasonable.
Anyone else have "gut feelings" on the matter at hand?
Couple things I think you're looking at the wrong way. Giving the 2pc T5 bonus a 0 value is because evicerate is not even considered in this spreadsheet due to the fact that it comes no where close to the value of rupture in terms of damage per energy point. Under no 'real world' circumstance could we see evicerate overtaking rupture in DPE, the math has been done several times in this thread and others. Since this spreadsheet is designed around the idea of endless uninterrupted combat in which a mob IS poisonable and not immune to bleed effects rupture is the clear choice.
Second, the fact that rupture is the only choice for this spreadsheet does not mean Aldriana and others think evicerate is useless, we all use it because clearly in many cases we have to. The 2pc T5 bonus only has a 0 value because evicerate is not modeled in this spreadsheet. We all use evic sometimes, but adding it to this spreadsheet doesn't contribute to it's purpose of comparing gear under the given assumptions.
As has been said many times, this spreadsheet provides suggestions, not commands. Acknowledge the assumptions used by this spreadsheet before making your choices. There is value to items that increase your dmg on Trash and poison/bleed immune mobs, it's just not modeled here.
Kytrarewn: I hope I understand your point, that the T5 2pc set bonus should have some value. The idea of the spreadsheet (which has been discussed ad nauseum) is to calculate DPS for ideal circumstances. Putting together spreadsheets for interrupted fights would not only be difficult but also incredibly tedious because there are so many different options for killing "adds." Therefore the T5 2-piece set bonus is not valued, because obviously under ideal circumstances you wouldn't be using Eviscerate.
As for some of your examples:
Solarian: As you can see in the Boss Armor Values thread, Solarian, surprisingly, doesn't have that little armor as you would expect. Besides, you would need a rediculous amount of crit and the boss to have very, very low armor to make Eviscerate's DPE competitive with Rupture's.
FLK: Even if you were Blade Flurry'ing the mobs together, that'd be one, maybe two 5-pt Eviscerates while Flurry'ing, and 200 to 400 extra damage there is absolutely nothing. The rest of the time you'd still use Rupture.
Obviously when killing adds there are going to be times when Rupture is inferior to Eviscerate, but that really wasn't what the spreadsheet was designed to model nor are those times very many.
Reread the first sentence in my post, and you'll see that I wasn't so much arguing with the spreadsheet as I was looking for other peoples' experiences to supplement it.
I'm not saying that it should have a value in a spreadsheet that's designed around 'ideal situations'. And in fact, it's probably absolutely impossible to model.
But, as far as its actual value? It isn't 0, and very few people would argue that it is. That's why I asked for "GUT FEELING" on its value, which seems to me to be 20-25AP, and would like to know if anyone else has a "GUT FEELING" on its actual value, as I believe I gave significant examples of places where you might use evisc/envenom over rupture that you could, perhaps, assign a "GUT FEELING" to the value of the bonus.
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.
If T4 two piece bonus is valued at 50. I do not consider the t5 two piece set bonus to be worth half(25) of T4 either. Maybe 5 would be best. Personally, I wouldn't recommend getting rid of T4 bonus until you have at least four pieces of T5.
But anyway, I do not think it will be a good idea to give it a value. Of course, there are sometimes you would use eviscrate over rupture, those times are very scarce and the extra damage you gain from the set is minimal.
Those "GUT FEELINGS" are your personal feelings about the set. If you feel that in your current state of progression, t5 bonus will provide you more than keeping your T4 bonus, then go for it. The spreadsheet cannot account for your personal feelings of the item(s).
I just did a little paper math which is probably grossly inaccurate. Assuming a 30% armor mitigation and 25% crit rate and spamming evic every...I'll say 30 seconds which I think is generous for a 5point evic, it puts your average increase at 175 dmg. That is 5.83dps. Compare that to whatever increase the 2pc T4 gives and the increase/decrease in stats you get from switching from T4 to T5 and there's your answer.
EDIT: Did a quick look, adding 1ap to my spreadsheet gives about .34dps. If the 2pc T4 bonus is valued at 50 for you then that's ~17 dps for you. Interesting to note that set bonus is only worth 2.34ap for my current gear....
Last edited by Mojofabulous : 11/04/07 at 3:16 PM.
EDIT: Did a quick look, adding 1ap to my spreadsheet gives about .34dps. If the 2pc T4 bonus is valued at 50 for you then that's ~17 dps for you. Interesting to note that set bonus is only worth 2.34ap for my current gear....
Doing some quick spreadsheet work with both the gear and DPS spreadsheets, the value of 1AP is about 0.2-0.25 DPS for me right now.
Considering the '3DPS' number that I came up with earlier, or one 5pt evisc every 90 seconds (including crit rate and 20% armor), that comes out to an average of 3DPS or 5AP on average.
As such, the set bonus seems to be ~ 12-15AP, or just BARELY enough that it's worthwhile to use the deathmantle/skulker's/engineering pieces over using the netherblade equivalents (since the deathmantle handguards, engineering hat, and bloodsea brigand's vest are definitive upgrades).
Skulkers => Netherblade is a loss of ~ 19 effective AP.
Deathmantle => Netherblade shoulders is a loss of about 27 effective AP.
Netherblade 2pc bonus is weighted at 56AP.
So, weighing in the 2pc T5 bonus at 10AP (3DPS x 3AP/DPS) we end up being able to justify wearing the T5 pieces over the netherblade equivalents.
Is it tighter than I'd like it to be? Yes, probably, but it also allows us to justify taking T5 pieces on the way to the very significant 4pc bonus.
Jesus don't want me in a sunbeam
Sunbeams are always made on me
Don't expect me to cry, for all the reasons I'm gonna die
Don't ever ask your kick of me.
Might have missed someone mentioning this in here, but this thread mentions that the backstab and sinister strike calculations are off in the sheet. Basic summary is that the talents like opportunity, supprise attacks and aggression are not (1+aggression)*(1+supprise attacks) but instead (1+aggression+supprise attacks).
I just wanted to double check, since I hadn't heard anything in a while, a new version with 2.3 items and talent changes has not been finalized quite yet, correct? Any updates on when that might be a possibility Ald?
It appears that the 5s cycle in the sheet currently refreshes snd as soon as 5 cps are reached, in builds without relentless strikes it would be better to refresh it as seldom as possible to waste less energy (at the expense of wasted cps). I understand the sheet was designed around a narrow spectrum of builds and so it might not be easy/worthwhile to make it more general, but I thought I'd mention it. I'm just trying to get an idea of how much dps is lost by picking up Cheat Death, if it goes live in its current form it looks quite interesting and surprisingly the 5s cycle appears to be an option for this build.
I just wanted to double check, since I hadn't heard anything in a while, a new version with 2.3 items and talent changes has not been finalized quite yet, correct? Any updates on when that might be a possibility Ald?
Thanks
IIRC, Thanksgiving is what Ald said a few days ago.
Might have missed someone mentioning this in here, but this thread mentions that the backstab and sinister strike calculations are off in the sheet. Basic summary is that the talents like opportunity, supprise attacks and aggression are not (1+aggression)*(1+supprise attacks) but instead (1+aggression+supprise attacks).
Yes, I saw that thread. I'll fix it in the next release.
Originally Posted by Macblade
I just wanted to double check, since I hadn't heard anything in a while, a new version with 2.3 items and talent changes has not been finalized quite yet, correct? Any updates on when that might be a possibility Ald?
Thanks
Still on target for Thanksgiving or so.
Originally Posted by Sarlunas
It appears that the 5s cycle in the sheet currently refreshes snd as soon as 5 cps are reached, in builds without relentless strikes it would be better to refresh it as seldom as possible to waste less energy (at the expense of wasted cps). I understand the sheet was designed around a narrow spectrum of builds and so it might not be easy/worthwhile to make it more general, but I thought I'd mention it. I'm just trying to get an idea of how much dps is lost by picking up Cheat Death, if it goes live in its current form it looks quite interesting and surprisingly the 5s cycle appears to be an option for this build.
This is true. Unfortunately, there's not an easy way to fix it, and, frankly, I'm not much inclined to worry about it, either, since builds without Relentless Strikes are so few and far between (and, almost univerally, are terrible) that being slightly off in those cases does not strike me as a large concern.
While 0/28/33 is certainly inferior dps compared to 11/28/22 I'm not sure the difference is as big as one might think (unless murder applies). Anyway I was just hoping there would be an easy fix but if not then forget it.
While 0/28/33 is certainly inferior dps compared to 11/28/22 I'm not sure the difference is as big as one might think (unless murder applies). Anyway I was just hoping there would be an easy fix but if not then forget it.
It's not a huge difference. On a blasted lands mob after 25mins of attacking with each build the difference was 35dps unbuffed without using cooldowns. Yes, attacking without ruthlessness or relentless strikes SUCKED, but the dps was still relatively close and you get cheat death, which just owns.
11/01/07, 11:34 PM
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