Thanks a lot but I'm still a little confused. So it is really recommended to use a 1s/5r rotation as a sword build?
As a sidenote I just noticed I posted in the wrong thread, sorry for that I!
So, long story short? Yes, for short fights the sheet is inaccurate - for reasons that go beyond the simple issues with activated trinkets - becase short fights is not what it's designed to model.
Serious question then: how many fights qualify as "long enough"?
You mention four - Magtheridon, Hydross, Leotheras and Karathress. Don't all four of these fights have adds and/or diffrerent phases that require you to move in and out of melee ramge and/or switch target?
It seems to me that any fight with multiple targets or multiple phases is better modelled as multiple short fights than as one long fight. Maybe not from the point of view of cooldowns and trinkets, but certainly for the ramp-up times of poisons and cycles.
Is there any likelihood of being able to generate a spreadsheet that can cope with 1min, 2min... etc fights? Or is it just not amenable to that kind of analysis?
You could, of course, do such a thing - but then the question becomes, which time frame would you do it for? 25 seconds on, 10 seconds off for the Twin Emperors? 25 seconds on, 5 seconds off for Chromaggus? How many adds? How many HP do the adds have?
So rather than have a spreadsheet for each individual fight and its peculiarities, you have one spreadsheet that gives a general answer, and you fill in the gaps of its scope with understanding. We know Mut ramps up faster than Combat Daggers, so they're going to edge a little bit on a Maulgar fight, and absolutely dominate on something akin to the old Twin Emps fight, where it's all ramp up and then you're running around for a while.
Sorry for the outdated examples, but I'm ex-hardcore, now enjoying a 2 day a week raid scene and currently clearing Karazhan, working on Maulgar.
Serious question then: how many fights qualify as "long enough"?
You mention four - Magtheridon, Hydross, Leotheras and Karathress. Don't all four of these fights have adds and/or diffrerent phases that require you to move in and out of melee ramge and/or switch target?
It seems to me that any fight with multiple targets or multiple phases is better modelled as multiple short fights than as one long fight. Maybe not from the point of view of cooldowns and trinkets, but certainly for the ramp-up times of poisons and cycles.
Is there any likelihood of being able to generate a spreadsheet that can cope with 1min, 2min... etc fights? Or is it just not amenable to that kind of analysis?
Morogrim is the new DPS test fight I guess. It's 10 minutes (more if you're slow) where the rogues do not move, and his back is turned the entire fight. You get entombed in a water bubble for about 10 seconds a couple times during the fight though.
Serious question then: how many fights qualify as "long enough"?
You mention four - Magtheridon, Hydross, Leotheras and Karathress. Don't all four of these fights have adds and/or diffrerent phases that require you to move in and out of melee ramge and/or switch target?
It seems to me that any fight with multiple targets or multiple phases is better modelled as multiple short fights than as one long fight. Maybe not from the point of view of cooldowns and trinkets, but certainly for the ramp-up times of poisons and cycles.
Is there any likelihood of being able to generate a spreadsheet that can cope with 1min, 2min... etc fights? Or is it just not amenable to that kind of analysis?
So, an answer in a couple parts:
Depending on your guild's strategy and luck, Magtheridon, Tidewalker, and Hydross are all decently approximated by 10 min uninterrupted dps. Karathress is perhaps more accurately 4 fights each 2-3 min long, and Leotharas is just plain interrupted and spotty. Void Reaver has frequent interruptions but said interruptions are fairly short. And I haven't seen any of the other fights in the expansion yet - perhaps someone in a more advanced guild than I (koaschten, perhaps?) can comment on the nature of the later TK fights and/or Hyjal and Black Temple.
So, while there are certainly some fights that are highly interrupted, there are also quite a few that aren't. So a purely sustained model is somewhat reasonable for a nontrivial number of fights in the expansion. Hence, the sustained model does have some value.
Admittedly, however, it would be potentially worthwhile to deal with shorter and/or more interrupted fights than this spreadsheet is designed to handle. To be perfectly honest, this is exactly the complaint I raised against the initial Rogue DPS spreadsheet when I first saw it - consider, for instance, the following statement by me in my guild forums, last October:
...as near as I can tell, it's computing DPS in an abstracted situation that doesn't actually occur in any real fight. The assumptions about sustainability aren't even valid for Patchwerk, much less any other fight. It's calculating the numbers assuming, roughly speaking, a fight of infinite length against a stationary target with no tea use. Whereas in practice, the longest uninterrupted stationary fight we have is Patchwerk at 7 minutes, and that's short enough that the edge effects do matter. So, yes, as a theoretical exercise in damage computation, it's fine - but has nothing to do with any real situation, even neglecting the issues of stamina and survivability.
Now, looking back: 1) I was overstating the case slightly and 2) I think this is less true now than it was then, but I'm certainly willing to concede that it's a valid gripe.
The problem is: computing anything else is a whole heck of a lot harder. My solution to the problem then was to totally neglect any notion of cycles and just straight parse fights to figure out how often I was using each attack, and a parameter in the spreadsheet that allowed me to tweak this value to customize gear to each fight. The problem is, many of the newer effects and abilities (notably, haste procs such as Mongoose/Dragonspine Trophy/Thundering Skyfire Diamond and energy procs like Combat Potency) just cannot be modeled through these approaches, because they fundamentally change the ratio of white to yellow attacks. Hence, the approach of counting attacks just doesn't work - one actually needs to look at the attack order and cycles. But to come up with general cycles - across a range of gear selection - for a fight only one or two minutes long, turns out to be extremely challenging. And even if you figure it out for 1 min fights, you'd need to figure it out again for 2 min fights, and for 3 min fights, and for fights separated by 15 seconds, or 1 min, or 5 min. And unless you do this all carefully and precisely, the answers you get aren't really going to be any better.
Finally: even assuming I did know how to write a tool more specific to short fights, and that such a thing would be more accurate for significant numbers of fights, I'm honestly not sure if it's worth the effort. This sheet is designed as a tool, not the ultimate answer to all questions rogue. It will, in general terms, allow you to compare gear, and help you towards optomizing your DPS while maintaining survivability - but I make no claims that it's accurate to more than a couple AP-equivalent anyway. For the general sorts of comparisons it's designed for (i.e. is it worth losing the WW 2/5 bonus to upgrade WW shoulders to Deathmantle) it's going to give answers that are just as helpful as the more focused tool. And for the more subtle questions (which is better, Veteran's Musket or Prince Bow) where the answer is only 2-3 EAP apart, I wouldn't trust any spreadsheet to always get the answer right.
So, stated briefly: while this sheet isn't a 100% accurate model of all possible cases, I believe it is sufficiently close to still be a useful tool - such that I don't think it warrants the (considerable) effort it would require to make a good interrupted-fight SS.
We were unable to resolve all the issues with OO compatability, so as a quick fix I generated a second version of the sheet that works in OO (but not Excel). Hence, there are two download links:
Changes:
*Sheet now supports mixing weapons of different types (i.e. Sword MH and Dagger OH, or vice versa)
*Socketing has been redone - this should resolve the issues with socketing in the previous verison.
*More accurate model of Windfury added
*Sword Spec adjusted to reflect the fact that Sword Spec hits are yellow attacks and cannot glance.
*Assorted bugs in calculation sheets corrected.
*"Optimal" and "Suggested Upgrade" columns should now give more accurate values.
*New items added.
*Thundering Skyfire Diamond updated to have a 40 sec internal cooldown; this is an approximate value until the behavior is totally modeled, but it more accurately reflects the power of the gem than did the old model.
*Issue with enchants of the same name has been corrected.
*Indicator of current hit rating and whether you are at the hit cap added to main page.
*And probably some other stuff too - I don't recall everything that's been changed over the last couple weeks.
Huzzah! Please post any errors you find here. I'm especially interested to see if there are any problems with the new gemming framework, so please do your worst!
I'm not very experienced in excel, so I can't do it myself, but is it possible to store your gear set choices, with maybe a macro or something? I would like to be able to keep my gear consistent from version to version, and some sort of export/import could be useful.
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell
Whenever I put in Shard-Bound Bracer, the entire sheet goes crazy and returns #N/A for all cells.
did you add a gem into the gem slot (or select none). I probably should have put none as the default in all the cells, but try that and tell me if it fixes your problem.
I could write macros to do lots of things, but I don't think most people would want to run macros on sheets that they download from random people on the web (despite being linked by ej).
Last edited by Darlal : 06/02/07 at 4:10 AM.
Reason: added information
did you add a gem into the gem slot (or select none). I probably should have put none as the default in all the cells, but try that and tell me if it fixes your problem.
I could write macros to do lots of things, but I don't think most people would want to run macros on sheets that they download from random people on the web (despite being linked by ej).
Nope. No sign of a gem or an attempt of putting in a gem.
did you add a gem into the gem slot (or select none). I probably should have put none as the default in all the cells, but try that and tell me if it fixes your problem.
I could write macros to do lots of things, but I don't think most people would want to run macros on sheets that they download from random people on the web (despite being linked by ej).
Confirmed: if the item has sockets and you don't select either a gem or "None", the sheet does break. But if you just fill the socket, everything works again.
Plugged in a few of my stats for the new spreadsheet, got some interesting results. First, I have TSD and Dragonspine, but the sheet tells me that my optimal hit is 272, not 308. I was led to believe that the more haste one had, the more value HR gained, but the sheet says that such is not the case.
Also, sheet gives me a surprisingly large increase in DPS when comparing even inferior DPS swords to high quality daggers. For example, with exactly the same gear (roughly 28% crit, 1640 AP and hit capped), Vindicator's+Latro's beats Fang of Vashj + Tracker's Blade by over 30 DPS, assuming 19/42 for swords and 15/41/5 for daggers. Was the buff to sword spec so huge that it apparently edges out combat daggers by such a large margin?
For example, with exactly the same gear (roughly 28% crit, 1640 AP and hit capped), Vindicator's+Latro's beats Fang of Vashj + Tracker's Blade by over 30 DPS, assuming 19/42 for swords and 15/41/5 for daggers. Was the buff to sword spec so huge that it apparently edges out combat daggers by such a large margin?
It was like this before the buff... Swords have been better since BC came out and 1.4-5 speed offhands fell into our laps.
I don't think a 5% extra attack mechanic was developed with the idea of proccing from a weapon twice as slow in your main hand (with no offhand damage penalty.)
Also, it's not completely accurate. We don't know if sword spec procs windfury, we don't know if it procs combat potency... We hardly know that sword spec doesn't proc off of itself.
Really a strength of a combat swords build that I doubt even a handful of people have realized yet is how optimal the combo point generation is.
With rupture becoming such an important and clear choice over eviscerate and combat potency changing cp generation drastically a few months ago, what has really changed?
An ideal build will give just enough points to toss up a 5 point rupture just as the preceeding rupture falls off while having a hundred percent slice uptime. Now I think daggers are too slow and mutilate is too fast for this.
Course that's just my speculation. Haven't done the math and could be wrong.
I've been messing around with the spreadsheet for quite a while now, and it's very nicely done. Couple little gripes I have with it however:
First off I believe that because of the way in which hit was calculated it is slightly overvalued. You use a method of generating the dps gain form 1 hit rating by decreasing the hit value, which because of the semi-linear properties of +hit makes the calculations slightly off.
Simple change for this would be to take the +13/205 off H35 and H31 and change H7 to read "=$B$7+1" Might be off as to your reasonings for doing this, but would make it a little more accurate.
Second, I don't know why, but I can not get my AP to match up to my in game tab on the Dagger Calc sheet. Taking off all buffs form the sheet, and seeing that all gems/items/enchants are correct it still won't show my character sheet number. It's always lower than expected!
One last thing to mention would be that each time you release a new sheet, I always add drop down boxes to the buff sheet to make it a little easier to use, as well as alternating lines of color to better choose between the buffs. Just little UI things that can make the sheet much more user friendly.
Great job on it though, I love to see all the calculations out there to go over and examine! Keep up the awesome work!
Yeah, the buff sheet will be addressed soon. Right now we're more concerned with getting core functionality correct.
To LiteSabre, what stat balance are you using? If you are using Total, agility and hit become so close in value (for a large chunk of gear) that the sheet will sometimes give what seem to be either conflicting or circular results. I personally really only use the "offensive" setting, which gives no value to defensive stats like stamina.
Plugged in a few of my stats for the new spreadsheet, got some interesting results. First, I have TSD and Dragonspine, but the sheet tells me that my optimal hit is 272, not 308. I was led to believe that the more haste one had, the more value HR gained, but the sheet says that such is not the case.
"Optimal" doesn't refer to the best possible gear you could be wearing. It refers to the best possible gemming/enchanting of what you are wearing. The reason there is an "optimal hit" number is to warn you if the gem combination it's recommending excedes the hit cap (in which case it's wrong about what's optimal; it has no way of knowing about the hit cap, so will keep recommending hit gems no matter how much you have. The general solution is to start replacing hit gems with agi gems relative to it's recommendation until you're under the hit cap.
So, it's not asserting that 272 is the absolute maximum useful haste value; merely that with your current gear, the best possible socketing yields 272 hit rating.
Originally Posted by Xizenta
It was like this before the buff... Swords have been better since BC came out and 1.4-5 speed offhands fell into our laps.
Agreed; I found this to be true of the Rogue DPS spreadsheet as well. I think it's in no small part due to the fact that swords just have access to vastly more efficient cycles; 5/5/3 is not a particularly good cycle, but it's the best that combat daggers can do; when you get to 5s/5r there's a signficant damage boost, and the ability to further drop the length of the SnD to compress the cycle even further just favors swords all the more.
Originally Posted by Xizenta
I don't think a 5% extra attack mechanic was developed with the idea of proccing from a weapon twice as slow in your main hand (with no offhand damage penalty.)
Also, it's not completely accurate. We don't know if sword spec procs windfury, we don't know if it procs combat potency... We hardly know that sword spec doesn't proc off of itself.
Yes; the sheet currently assumes that sword spec can proc all the other proc effects you may have, which may or may not be accurate, and whether it's true or not would create a fairly large disparity in dps; rogue DPS is heavily influenced due to the large number of powerful procs available right now (Dragonspine, Mongoose, Poisons, etc.)
Originally Posted by Iquark
First off I believe that because of the way in which hit was calculated it is slightly overvalued. You use a method of generating the dps gain form 1 hit rating by decreasing the hit value, which because of the semi-linear properties of +hit makes the calculations slightly off.
Simple change for this would be to take the +13/205 off H35 and H31 and change H7 to read "=$B$7+1" Might be off as to your reasonings for doing this, but would make it a little more accurate.
So, the reason why it's done the way it is is to prevent the value of hit rating from going to zero the moment you touch the hit cap; while it's true that the *incremental* value of hit goes to zero at that point, the value of the first 300 points shouldn't change; as such, I subtract the amount of hit granted by 1 hit rating after performing the floor of the the hit cap to ensure that a valid result is always obtained.
In terms of whether it's less accurate: the only difference between what it's doing and what you recommend (assuming you're not at the hit cap) is that this way measures the damage lost by you hit going down by 1, and your way measures the damage gained by hit going up by 1; either is as accurate as the other. In reality, we should be taking the derivative at the point itself rather than doing either, but since that's not practical, going one step in either direction is equally valid.
Originally Posted by Iquark
Second, I don't know why, but I can not get my AP to match up to my in game tab on the Dagger Calc sheet. Taking off all buffs form the sheet, and seeing that all gems/items/enchants are correct it still won't show my character sheet number. It's always lower than expected!
If you're refering to the stats at the top of the cacls page - that's honestly not *too* surprising to me. The stats on the calc page are in some sense "raw stats" - they're not computed in quite the same way as the ones on your character sheet. For instance, Agi and Sta don't factor in Vitality at the top; this it added further down the page. AP includes a time-averaged portion of any activated AP effects such as Bloodlust Brooch. I think there are a few other things like that as well.
That said, it's also possible there's a bug; I'll look through it and see if I can find anything. We already corrected a couple of issues that were causing stats to be added incorrectly in the last revision; it's entirely possible that we missed something so it's still a bit off.
Originally Posted by Iquark
One last thing to mention would be that each time you release a new sheet, I always add drop down boxes to the buff sheet to make it a little easier to use, as well as alternating lines of color to better choose between the buffs. Just little UI things that can make the sheet much more user friendly.
Yeah, buff sheet UI is on the list of things to be improved - we just haven't gotten to it yet. I'd expect to have something within the next couple of revisions, but don't hold me to that.
Yeah, the buff sheet will be addressed soon. Right now we're more concerned with getting core functionality correct.
To LiteSabre, what stat balance are you using? If you are using Total, agility and hit become so close in value (for a large chunk of gear) that the sheet will sometimes give what seem to be either conflicting or circular results. I personally really only use the "offensive" setting, which gives no value to defensive stats like stamina.
I really only care about offense, so I set it to that and got the results posted above. An interesting thing to note is that when I set the sheet to combat swords with the BT MH/Hyjal OH, it gave me an optimal hit rating of 372, far above the hit cap. I have no idea what happened to cause this.
Agreed; I found this to be true of the Rogue DPS spreadsheet as well. I think it's in no small part due to the fact that swords just have access to vastly more efficient cycles; 5/5/3 is not a particularly good cycle, but it's the best that combat daggers can do; when you get to 5s/5r there's a signficant damage boost, and the ability to further drop the length of the SnD to compress the cycle even further just favors swords all the more.
So you're saying that Vindicator's + Latro's really DOES have much higher DPS than a set of daggers that drop from Vashj and Rage Winterchill? If so, I need to go do some respeccing. o_O
I prefer swords to be honest, but I'd always assumed that daggers had naturally higher DPS to make up for the awkwardness involving positioning, plus the other constraints both PVP-wise and energy cycle/rotation-wise.
Pardon me if I'm being redundant, but you have Bright Living Ruby labeled as Bold Living Ruby in the spreadsheet. It's a minor nuance, but I wanted to point that out for people who haven't clicked the Gems tab and explored what's included.
(Bright = +16 ap; Bold = +8 str.)
EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to ask... are fist weapons being planned to be added?
So, the reason why it's done the way it is is to prevent the value of hit rating from going to zero the moment you touch the hit cap; while it's true that the *incremental* value of hit goes to zero at that point, the value of the first 300 points shouldn't change; as such, I subtract the amount of hit granted by 1 hit rating after performing the floor of the the hit cap to ensure that a valid result is always obtained.
Well interestingly enough... because there is no validation on the MH/OH miss chance not allowing it to go below 0, hit will still remain worth it's value over 308 with these changes. I might be missing something, however I saw it level off at a number specific to gear once you hit the 308 or above mark.
05/31/07, 6:51 PM
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