Is there a revised ETA on the next version of the sheet?
See Aldriana's post above.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
No, this sheet has not been updated for 2.3. I'm working on it this weekend; I may or may not finish. Hopefully it won't be more than another week or two either way.
Just another quick update: I did get some work done over the weekend, but I didn't finish, due to the fact that I've started leveling an alt and, unlike most previous alts, I'm actually having fun with this one and hence playing quite a bit. I'm still hoping for that "next week or two" release, there's just a few Excel subtleties that I haven't quite figured out how to do yet that are blocking development. Any of you who are Excel gurus (in particular, if you understand how the zone checkboxes work and could add a new one for ZA), let me know.
If you need some excel things done feel free to send me the sheet. I'm not playing much anymore, but since I coded it in the first place it's probably easiest for me to make these updates.
I cannot seem to find the Brooch of Deftness on either the RogueDPS spreadsheet nor the Rogue_Gear spreadsheet.
Both sheets do have other recently added badge rewards. Am i missing something ?
I have recently changed some gear to vary some of my stats, but now my hit rating seems to be taking a bit of a beating and would like to see how the added hit rating and expertise rating from the new Brooch would affect my dps.
** Ahh, reading back a few posts i see that the sheet is awaiting an update **
Quite simply, you should not use Brooch of Deftness. It will be inferior to essentially any other neckpiece you could reasonably obtain.
To be VERY specific and add to this point, if you have the badges for the Brooch of Deftness, buy the Choker of Vile Intent instead. If Vile Intent isn't an upgrade, Brooch most certainly isn't.
I think I object to the description of Shadowpanther as "very trusted". I think a more accurate term would be, perhaps, "widely used". In terms of accuracy, it's certainly better than some sources out there, but it can't really be considered a highly trusted source. As a quick reference guide it does fine, but in pretty much any circumstance when it differs from information on these forums, we're right and it's wrong.
One could, then, reasonably ask "why is it so widely used if it's not notably accurate?" Well, first, as a quick approximation when your gear is changing reasonably often and you don't feel like messing with a spreadsheet, it does fine - in that case, it does have it's place. Additionally, even were that not the case, there's certainly plenty of examples of widely trusted but vastly incorrect information out there. I can't tell you how many times I've been asked the question "if theorycraft says X, why does so-and-so from Nihilum do Y instead?" - to which the answer is, quite simply: because we're right and he's wrong. Or, as another example: back in the day, Ming had a nontrivial following in terms of rogue advice and strategy; however, 5 minutes examination of his derivation of an AEP system revealed that the fact that his recommendations were even close to right was more a matter of coincidence than any actual merit.
Anyway: I'm not saying that people shouldn't use Shadowpanther. I just encourage them to remember that it's only a rough estimate of the right answers, so people shouldn't be surprised when it disagrees with the more detailed examinations of the subject.
WHile it's hard to add much to what Ald posted regarding Shadowpanther and Nihilum, it's true. Nihilum has exceptionally good WoW players and so they kill bosses faster than other people. If their first few guides are any indiciation, however, they have many bad theorycrafters who are simply wrong.
Because Nihilum achieves great things in WoW with their great players, they have many people emulate what they say is correct -- even when it isn't.
Playing well is going to improve your rogue dps with inferior gear more than getting better gear will -- unless you are skill capped.
I refer to Shadowpanther now and again for lists of items and such, but it's fairly easy to see how incorrect the information is. If you can find two items you own that are rated in different order by the rogue gear spreadsheet here and the shadowpanther list, go test them out in blasted lands and in a few raids. What you'll see is not only does the theorycraft back up the spreadsheets here over shadowpanther, but the reality does too.
Rather than diss the Shadowpanther information (which I used for many, many months to help guide me in my gear selection up through T3), I'll point out that his rating system basically assigns static AEP values to each stat, then just does some simple math to total everything up. Then he provides three different sets of static weightings to approximate the benefits you might be getting playing three different playstyles.
The spreadsheets listed here, on the other hand, go to varying lengths to model the interaction between different stats and to calculate the relative "AEP" stats you should be using. They also, to different degrees, model cycles and other complex processes to better estimate true effect on your in-game DPS generation.
Nobody says the models are perfect, and a bad model might end up being less predictive than shadowpanther. Luckily, through lots of empirical testing and multiple eyeballs looking over the calculations, we're pretty certain the two sheets here are not "bad", and are hopefully pretty "good."
Summary: Trust the sheets here more than the shadowpanther estimates. But for people unwilling or unable to use and understand these sheets, shadowpanther is likely to be better than nothing. I certainly support him in his effort to help the community.
Don't get me wrong: I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with his techniques; he scores stuff via equivalence points just like everyone else. It's just that the weightings there are a bit off for most people, such that the gear ordering, while decent, does have some places where I think the order is wrong. Is it better than nothing? Sure. As I said above, for those who don't want to spend the time on sheets, it's a perfectly reasonably place to be looking. But on the other hand, it does need to be remembered that it's not as accurate as some of the other sources available, which is why the question "Why does the spreadsheet say X while Shadowpanther says Y" is not the most productive of questions.
"I think I object to the description of Shadowpanther as "very trusted". I think a more accurate term would be, perhaps, "widely used". In terms of accuracy, it's certainly better than some sources out there, but it can't really be considered a highly trusted source. As a quick reference guide it does fine, but in pretty much any circumstance when it differs from information on these forums, we're right and it's wrong."
I agree with Aldriana, shadowpanther isnt nearly as indepth as most of the information on this site. Anything you see there should be taken with a grain of salt and not gospel.
If your guild has Illidan on farm status, im pretty sure your main source for information at that level of play comes from here.
I use shadowpanther alot for general information dont get me wrong, but when you are searching for the theory behind the damage you do and/or trying to eek out 1 or 2 more dps from your already nearly maxed gear, here is where you will find the tools and information to do that, imo.
I'm sitting at 314 hit as of now, (I picked up the slayer's helm last night and added a 10hit gem to my gloves since we dont have the shifting shadowsong pattern yet :\). I know that trying to hitcap directly is pointless, but at the same time, having DST/WSC as my trinkets (both chance on hits, thus higher chance to proc with more hits), I would assume that adding hit isn't a bad thing.
My bamboozlement came from adding Mantle of Darkness and noticiing a DROP in dps over Swiftstrike shoulders. Compared, swiftstrike has 104~ap, .72%crit and 2.4% haste while mantle has 22 hit, 94ap and 1.49% crit. I guess I'm just amazed that 10ap and 2.4% haste > 22hit and +.77% crit. Even with kings, it only adds 3ap and .075% crit, not really adding to swiftstrike that much. This isn't really a HUGE issue since I won't have anyone going against me for the shoulders, but at the same time, why waste dkp on them if they aren't a true upgrade?
Well, making the extraordinarily unscientific approximate that 1% hit, 1% crit, and 1% haste help one by roughly comparable amounts (which isn't precisely true, but as they're within 10% or so of each other it's close enough as to be illustrative): 22 hit is 1.40% hit, so 22 hit and .77 crit works out to about 2.2% benefit, versus 2.4% (from haste) and 10 AP. It certainly seems reasonable to me that the latter is better.
Fundamentally: hit gives you more white damage and more procs. Crit gives you more white and yellow damage. Haste gives you more white damage and more combat potency procs. All three are thus good, and, in equal percentage quantity, are in the same ballpark of quality. The reason why hit and haste are better than crit in practice is because it takes fewer points of them to make 1% benefit.
So, stated briefly: this is a classic case of "hit is good, but there are other stats which are also good, so one has to look at the tradeoffs". And in this case, both ballpark estimates and the detailed analysis of the spreadsheet seem to agree that Swiftstrike is better.
I guess I didnt' see haste still being 1~1 with hit/agi just because of the haste nerf itself. But, if it is, then basically, swiftstrike is better by a small margain, and since I have already, might as well keep and not waste the DKP.
Well, the haste nerf means you now get 2.4% haste instead of 3.6% haste for that amount of haste rating. But 1% haste is still 1% more white attacks (sort of). And if you look at the AP-equivalence table that's in the Roguecraft 101 table, you'll notice that while haste is now point-for-point a *bit* weaker than hit, it's still pretty good.
The real story here is the Mantle of Darkness just isn't very good.
The real story here is the Mantle of Darkness just isn't very good.
Which saddens me that my 1500g investment is only beaten by t6 shoulders...aka almost anyone can get slightly less than t6 item with a bit of farming and LW as a profession.
Ah well, at least season3 pvp weps aren't better than BT/Hyjal weps....oh wait... -.-
Couple of quick mechanics questions that arose while working on spreadsheet that I don't know the answers to off the top of my head. Any input you may be able to provide on the following would be helpful:
1) How does the new mace spec stack with Relentless Earthstorm Diamond?
2) I know it's been tested that Surprise Attacks stacks additively with Aggression and Opportunity; how do Aggression and Opportunity stack with each other? That is, is it (1+.06)*(1+.2)+.1, or (1+.06+.2+.1)?
3) Has the base dodge rate for boss mobs been determined? The best guess I've heard is 6.5%, and my own limited testing makes that seem plausible, but I haven't seen much formal testing of this. Does anyone know otherwise?
4) How much +attack speed does one typically actually gain from the Troll Racial in a sustained situation? I know it's 10% if you haven't taken any damage, but presumably sometimes you have taken more damage and thus get a larger speed increase. How often does this happen, and how large a speed boost do you get as a result? Ultimately I'll probably just make this an adjustable parameter, but what should the default be?
Couple of quick mechanics questions that arose while working on spreadsheet that I don't know the answers to off the top of my head. Any input you may be able to provide on the following would be helpful:
1) How does the new mace spec stack with Relentless Earthstorm Diamond?
2) I know it's been tested that Surprise Attacks stacks additively with Aggression and Opportunity; how do Aggression and Opportunity stack with each other? That is, is it (1+.06)*(1+.2)+.1, or (1+.06+.2+.1)?
3) Has the base dodge rate for boss mobs been determined? The best guess I've heard is 6.5%, and my own limited testing makes that seem plausible, but I haven't seen much formal testing of this. Does anyone know otherwise?
4) How much +attack speed does one typically actually gain from the Troll Racial in a sustained situation? I know it's 10% if you haven't taken any damage, but presumably sometimes you have taken more damage and thus get a larger speed increase. How often does this happen, and how large a speed boost do you get as a result? Ultimately I'll probably just make this an adjustable parameter, but what should the default be?
1) I did some testing on the PTR and concluded that the difference between an additive combination of the two and a multiplicative combination is so miniscule, it'll be essentially impossible to determine which is the case under any real conditions. For simplicity, I modeled it as additive.
2) All of those talents stack additively.
3) I was asked in a PM recently to substantiate the 6.5% figure, and I really couldn't come up with much. There was a post late in the "weapon skill adjustment discussion" thread that contained parses which seemed to indicate dodge rates higher than 5.6% for bosses, but it's certainly nothing conclusive.
4) Just use 10%. It is far more likely you'll be at or near 100% when you use the ability, and I'm very willing to bet that any troll rogue who bides his time waiting to take damage before popping Berserking will have inferior results to one who uses the ability on cooldown regardless of health.
4) Agree with Vulajin there, i will just pop it when ready, the steps are 10 20 30% where you gain 10% at 100-67%, 20% at 66-34% and 30% at 33-1%
And honestly, the only occasions i try to sync it with damage taken is Naj'entus when i don't cloak on purpose or at Teron when i soaked a shadowbolt and incinerate -> cloak+berserk
Troll Berserk is a great racial, but healers heal too fast to pop it conciously.
11/27/07, 3:53 PM
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