Rogue Gear Spreadsheet - Page 61

sedrikk · 10/01/07, 2:00 PM

They could be confusing the numbers from the striking enchant to ring with the [Crystalforged Trinket] just assuming that both are +damage. It is 3.5x the ap equivalent of the enchant which puts the AP range in the 50s with daggers.

royaljester · 10/01/07, 2:03 PM

Originally Posted by sedrikk

They could be confusing the numbers from the striking enchant to ring with the [Crystalforged Trinket] just assuming that both are +damage. It is 3.5x the ap equivalent of the enchant which puts the AP range in the 50s with daggers.

Where are you getting that? Just math you did? And that would only be for the +7 weapon dmg. +2 to each ring is +4, which would be around 35ish according to your number?

• Aldriana · 10/01/07, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by royaljester

It may be because of my low hit right now (234) and so it would decrease its value? Not sure, but either way, I show it far less than 50 and about half of what you show.

Odd. If you want to post your copy of the sheet somewhere I'll take a look at it - having low hit shouldn't affect it that much. I mean, my hit is only 231 and I still show it as 12.38, so... I'm not sure.

I spent <1k gold to level LW and got 12-15dps increase from swiftstrike. I will get around 10-12 from already having JC. I'm not going to spend 3-5k gold to get enchanting for 11-12 ap. LOL

Enchanting doesn't cost 3-5k gold to level. I mean, it's expensive, don't get my wrong, but I'm pretty sure I didn't pay much over 2k to level it to 375... and that was before they lowered the materials on some of the high end enchants. This is not to say you should or shouldn't level it; I merely assert that it's not quite as expensive as you have stated.

sedrikk · 10/01/07, 2:25 PM

Just that they probably heard that the trinket was worth in the 50s in AP when looking at daggers and was basing it on one ring enchant

trinket
weapon damage gain = (ap/14) * weapon speed
7 = (ap/14)*1.8
3.89 = ap/14
54.4 = ap

1 ring enchant
weapon damage gain = (ap/14) * weapon speed
2 = (ap/14)*1.8
1.11 = ap/14
15.56 = ap

about 3.5x the ap equivelant

royaljester · 10/01/07, 2:54 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Odd. If you want to post your copy of the sheet somewhere I'll take a look at it - having low hit shouldn't affect it that much. I mean, my hit is only 231 and I still show it as 12.38, so... I'm not sure.

Enchanting doesn't cost 3-5k gold to level. I mean, it's expensive, don't get my wrong, but I'm pretty sure I didn't pay much over 2k to level it to 375... and that was before they lowered the materials on some of the high end enchants. This is not to say you should or shouldn't level it; I merely assert that it's not quite as expensive as you have stated.

I'll find a place to host it and then load it up later tonite after my night class. Not sure why it shows so low a value, but it just keeps me from wanting to level it even more. Also, even at 2k, that seems overly expensive for a profession that, on average, doesn't make much money in the end and only would offer these two ring enchants, nothing really substantial that is "BOP-profession holder only" type thing. Maybe once I'm complete in end-game gear and want to assert an extra 20-30 ap that I can't get any other way, I'll drop one of my two professions. Until then, nah.

I see what you did now, that makes sense. So together, the ring enchants give around 30ap, generally. That's not bad, but again, I don't see it being worth it until you're completely decked out in end-game gear/weps with no other avenue of dps increase...

• Aldriana · 10/01/07, 3:22 PM

I would argue that the ring enchants are the "BoP-profession-holder-only" itemization for enchanters; you get 2 ring enchants that you can't get as a nonenchanter. In fact, when you work out the numbers for a late BT rogues, Enchanting is one of the two most beneficial profession, by a significant margin. Consider:

Enchanting gives two ring enchants, totaling +8 str, agi, and sta, which works out to about 30 AP of offensive benefit.

Jewelcrafting gives the ability to include BoP epic gems in your gear; however, only two of the JC gems (Delicate Fire Ruby and Rigid Bladestone) are actually upgrades over BT gems; hence you gain a grand total of 2 agi and 2 hit relative to socketing the same two slots with Glinting Pyrestones, for a net benefit of about 10 AP.

Leatherworking gives you no long-term passive benefits, as Swiftstrike is not best-in-slot anywhere; however, the ability to make and use drums can be fairly beneficial; if used every time the cool is up, they provide about a 50 AP benefit in a sustained DPS scenario... to your entire group. This does get expensive after a while, of course, so in practice they tend to be used more selectively; however, it's still a nontrivial bonus in the endgame.

As such, in terms of a late BT rogue, there is a pretty compelling argument to be made for Leatherworking/Enchanting as the best two professions, with Enchanting/JC being the alternative.

Now, in practice, most of us aren't to that level of progression, and while in SSC/TK/early BT/whatever, a number of other professions have merit (Engineering for Deathblow goggles; more of the JC gems are worth using, etc.). But in the long run, I really do think Enchanting is where one optimally winds up.

royaljester · 10/01/07, 3:39 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

I would argue that the ring enchants are the "BoP-profession-holder-only" itemization for enchanters; you get 2 ring enchants that you can't get as a nonenchanter. In fact, when you work out the numbers for a late BT rogues, Enchanting is one of the two most beneficial profession, by a significant margin. Consider:

Enchanting gives two ring enchants, totaling +8 str, agi, and sta, which works out to about 30 AP of offensive benefit.

Jewelcrafting gives the ability to include BoP epic gems in your gear; however, only two of the JC gems (Delicate Fire Ruby and Rigid Bladestone) are actually upgrades over BT gems; hence you gain a grand total of 2 agi and 2 hit relative to socketing the same two slots with Glinting Pyrestones, for a net benefit of about 10 AP.

Leatherworking gives you no long-term passive benefits, as Swiftstrike is not best-in-slot anywhere; however, the ability to make and use drums can be fairly beneficial; if used every time the cool is up, they provide about a 50 AP benefit in a sustained DPS scenario... to your entire group. This does get expensive after a while, of course, so in practice they tend to be used more selectively; however, it's still a nontrivial bonus in the endgame.

As such, in terms of a late BT rogue, there is a pretty compelling argument to be made for Leatherworking/Enchanting as the best two professions, with Enchanting/JC being the alternative.

Now, in practice, most of us aren't to that level of progression, and while in SSC/TK/early BT/whatever, a number of other professions have merit (Engineering for Deathblow goggles; more of the JC gems are worth using, etc.). But in the long run, I really do think Enchanting is where one optimally winds up.

I wasn't putting Enchanting as a "provides no BOP" aspect, I was trying to say that benefits gained right now are miniscule compared to JC/LW for myself.

True, you gain 2 hit and 2 agi but you also go another 4ap (Crimson Sun 24ap) over the 20ap BT gem. Also, as far as I can tell the Rigid Bladestone (12hit) didnt make it into the patch, or is it off a vendor I didnt notice?

But for a pre Hyjal/BT rogue, as myself, with gems going to casters first, since we're a caster guild...ugh... I actually gain 8ap on the crimson sun, 6agi and 6hit over my current gems, making a benefit of almost 32ap, counting hit and agi as 2ap of course.

As for LW, I gain the swiftstrike set which, until BT/Late-Hyjal shoulders/wrists, are the best for a rogue, even post 2.2. As we get into Hyjal and I get upgrades, I will certainly be looking at sacrificing LW for possibly Enchanting, but probably not until Inscription comes out in the XP to see if that is a viable melee dps profession (as of now, I dont think it will be, but we'll see).

All in all, I agree with you fully, end-game professions will probably be Enchanting/LW for most rogues pre-XP, but as of now, I'm not willing to lose the time/money invested in LW/JC until I've started to get my fill of BT gems. By the way, how common are these gems/patterns? I've heard anything from fairly common to horrible drop rates and wondering, if farming just first 2 bosses of Hyjal and first 3-4 bosses of BT in an effort to gain raid experience, could we be seeing a large amount of gems/patterns, or are we going to be bickering each night over a gem or two? lol

uncut · 10/01/07, 4:36 PM

Just how good are these? I passed on them last night because I didn't initially see them to be as good as Tier 4 gloves, seeing as I'm still about 30 points shy of hit cap as it is.

I'm wanting to find out if I made a mistake ><

thanks

tsigo · 10/01/07, 4:39 PM

Originally Posted by uncut

Just how good are these? I passed on them last night because I didn't initially see them to be as good as Tier 4 gloves, seeing as I'm still about 30 points shy of hit cap as it is.

I'm wanting to find out if I made a mistake ><

thanks

Better than T4 (unless gloves are your second piece for the two-piece bonus) and worse than T5.

uncut · 10/01/07, 4:43 PM

thanks for the quick reply...i guess i'll keep an "eye" out for them next time. eye...get it..

/cry

royaljester · 10/01/07, 5:33 PM

Originally Posted by uncut

thanks for the quick reply...i guess i'll keep an "eye" out for them next time. eye...get it..

/cry

I actually lol'd at that.. poor guy

koaschten · 10/01/07, 5:54 PM

Guess what... we had a total of 2 vashj belts drop a few months back when we still did SSC ... both got disenchanted ... /Facepalm ... head -> wall...

Dontmindme · 10/01/07, 6:08 PM

Two things:
1) Actually, I can think of a reason to model Improved Eviscerate, namely Rupture immune mobs. This is another reason some might spec Improved Eviscerate since you'll have to be using Eviscerate to spend those extra combo points. Although, that said, such an addition should be considered a bonus. I wouldn't worry about it until the sheet is finally the way you want it in terms of Rupture as the primary finishing move.

2) Speaking of the Crystalforged Trinket, it would be nice if this was added to the sheet. It is on par with some of the other trinkets in the sheet and if you happen to have been unlucky with instance drops, it may be your best option since all it requires is reputation that most raiders have by doing dailies to keep up with raiding costs. It's the only item I'm currently using that isn't modeled. About 30 runs in Black Morass and no Hourglass, every Kara seems to be Oz, and Gruul has yet to even drop a Dragonspine Trophy for my guild and the guild is planning just 5 more Gruul's Lair runs before focusing entirely on SSC and the Eye.

OnTheHissay · 10/01/07, 6:12 PM

Any early predictions about how DST will place itself in the new spreadsheet?

I'm having a dilemma now since I just got exalted with Ashtongue and got the trinket. The three I have to choose from is: DST, TT and the Ashtongue one. I have 297hit, 30,38crit and 1800AP with DST and TT equipped. Worth replacing one for said trinket?

• Aldriana · 10/01/07, 7:03 PM

Originally Posted by Dontmindme

Two things:
1) Actually, I can think of a reason to model Improved Eviscerate, namely Rupture immune mobs. This is another reason some might spec Improved Eviscerate since you'll have to be using Eviscerate to spend those extra combo points. Although, that said, such an addition should be considered a bonus. I wouldn't worry about it until the sheet is finally the way you want it in terms of Rupture as the primary finishing move.

Yes, Eviscerate cycles are something that's on the list as something that might be nice to have someday. However, they're so far down on the list I have no reasonable expectation of ever getting around to them.

Also, while we're on the topic of Imp Evis, I would like to remind people that even if you *are* using Eviscerate as a finisher in PvE, this talent is usually not worth it. The amount of dps you gain from it is point-for-point less than Vile Poisons; hence, it's only those mobs that are both bleed and poison immune where Improved Eviscerate is actually beneficial. Now, there are certainly bosses that this is true of - Hydross, Void Reaver, and Doomwalker come to mind - but on the whole, trading a damage boost that works for 75% of boss fights for one that provides a smaller benefit on the remaining 25% just doesn't make much sense. Therefore, I would attribute the presence of Imp Evis in Combat Swords builds to either a) a desire for increased PvP viability, or b) ignorance. I suspect the 2nd is the more common cause.

2) Speaking of the Crystalforged Trinket, it would be nice if this was added to the sheet. It is on par with some of the other trinkets in the sheet and if you happen to have been unlucky with instance drops, it may be your best option since all it requires is reputation that most raiders have by doing dailies to keep up with raiding costs. It's the only item I'm currently using that isn't modeled. About 30 runs in Black Morass and no Hourglass, every Kara seems to be Oz, and Gruul has yet to even drop a Dragonspine Trophy for my guild and the guild is planning just 5 more Gruul's Lair runs before focusing entirely on SSC and the Eye.

Honestly, this trinket would be pretty far down on the list. Even as a dagger rogue I don't see it scoring above 95 AP or so, which puts it behind everything on the sheet by 15 or more AP with the exception of Kiss of the Spider - which, honestly, given the haste nerf, I will probably be removing from the sheet as well. It's not that it's a terrible trinket, per se, but the fact is that it isn't really in the same league as the trinkets already in the sheet - and there are plenty of trinkets in the list already that are accessible to Kara-level rogues.

However, if people are of the opinion that more low-end gear is necessary as they're finding themselves in mid-Kara without some of the gear on this sheet, I can review the itemization selections again.

Originally Posted by OnTheHissay

Any early predictions about how DST will place itself in the new spreadsheet?

I'm having a dilemma now since I just got exalted with Ashtongue and got the trinket. The three I have to choose from is: DST, TT and the Ashtongue one. I have 297hit, 30,38crit and 1800AP with DST and TT equipped. Worth replacing one for said trinket?

Short answer: wear DST and Ashtongue.
Long answer: read posts 739 and 759.