Furien

The Rogue 101 Thread suggests you break 2/4 T4 when you have 4/5 T5.

 

Stabmaster

This is what I did, and I wholeheartedly agree.

 

Koosai

This spread sheet actually gives values for set bonuses, so if your upgraded gloves and head are more of an upgrade than your 2 piece t4 you should upgrade. Also, as a note it does from what I recall take the set bonus into account when reccomending upgrades. If it did you would never see anything as an upgrade for pretty much any piece that made your set bonus.

 

Furien

Sorry I really can't understand what you are trying to say. If it's "use the spreadsheet because it will tell you" then I agree. I think you'll find that not breaking 2/4 T4 until you have 4/5 T5 is a good rule of thumb though.

 

neg^

Seeing as you aren't combat daggers, 2pc T4 doesn't add that much for you. Go for T5 since each piece is quite a bit better then T4.

 

Drunk

Ermm... what how does combat daggers benefit more from increased SnD uptime? It is all about shorter cycles getting Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes proc more often?

 

Arindelest

We have the spreadsheet for a reason: to use it. Let's not further stuff up this thread with silly questions, the answers to which could be easily determined by plugging your gear into the sheet or doing a little bit of research. I can't remember how many times we've gone over 2 pc T4 and its value, yet people continue to ask the same thing; the answer to your question is guaranteed to be in here or in the Roguecraft 101 thread.

 

◊ Shaker

I just want to have it on record that this statement is HORRIBLY inaccurate. 2pc T4 is very strong for any build that's realistically being discussed in the endgame PVE scene. The statements above are very correct, it's hard to find a gearset that is stronger than 2pc T4 until you're at 4pc T5.

The sheet also does not use the values of the set bonuses in the specific upgrade columns - you need to look at the DPS estimate to see if you're losing DPS by breaking a set bonus.

 

royaljester

To be honest, it should be quite clear.

Combat dagger cycles are usually 3s/5s/5r or 3s/3.4r or some variation. A combat sword cycle is usually 3s/5r and easily maintainable. A dagger rogue cycle, on the other hand, takes a lot longer to complete and maintain, thus getting rid of an extra SnD combo point would make it a more maintainable cycle. (When not using 2pc T4).

Having more SnD uptime will always benefit longer, more complex cycles more than shorter, easier to maintain cycles...Simple logic.

 

◊ Shaker

Actually, plugging my gear into the spreadsheet, then switching to an appropriate dagger spec (and using S2 daggers as compared to my S2 swords), I get the following values:

To drop the 2pc bonus, I switched my NB gloves to Grips of Deftness

~1423.63 (swords, w/ 2pc T4)
~1413.78 (swords w/o 2pc T4)
Value of Set bonus in the "Set Bonus Values" sheet - ~46.0

~1348.45 (daggers w/ 2pc T4)
~1344.1 (daggers w/o 2pc T4)
Value of Set bonus in the "Set Bonus Values" sheet - ~29.6

So no, it is NOT clear that it is better for combat daggers - in fact, it is QUITE clear to me that it is almost twice as good for combat swords.

The reason this is true is because the 2pc T4 adds a *static* 3s duration bonus to any SnD. Sword's tighter cycles utilize this in two ways - #1, they're faster cycles, so you get that 3s duration bonus more often. Also, they use smaller SnDs, so you get much bigger percentage increase. A 1pt SnD gives 4seconds bonus (from ~13s to ~17s), a 30% increase. A 5 pt SnD gives about 4.4 seconds (from 30.4 to 34.8), which is only a 15% increase.


Edit: more reasoning, clarifications

 

roq

It is better for dagger rogues because we can have more rupture uptime. If you go back through this thread Ald points out some of the reason Dagger Rogues fall behind Sword Rogues. One of the reasons is they just can't keep rupture up nearly as much since 8 of their 13 Combo points goes to SnD. Running a 1s/3r with the t4 set bonus allows for more ruptures upping your DPS.

 

Macblade

Unless this has been changed, I specifically remember Aldrianna saying that the sheet does NOT take into account set bonus when recommending specific item changes. I believe that he said it was for two reasons, one, it would be difficult to model. Two, it wouldn't be very accurate for gear recommendations because when it comes down to it, no piece of gear, on its own, would be worth breaking a set bonus as good as 2 peice T4 or 4 peice T5 etc. I believe that the idea is to collect two or three peices and then it will probably be worth swtiching over all at once. This is not something that the spreedsheet can do with gear recommendations though. You have to get the upgrades and then play around with the sheet and see when the individual upgrades that you have outweigh the value of a set bonus.

 

neg^

With it daggers can move to 1s/3r which is as short as combat swords. For swords there really isn't that big of a difference in cycles, most of the time you end up refreshing snd early making the set bonus worth null(it's a choice of wasted energy, snd uptime or combopoints). As has been stated several times over in this thread.

 

• songster

...but wastes a lot of energy and still doesn't get good rupture uptime. Combat swords can do 1s/5r with 2 piece T4. That's as good as it gets. There really is no question that 2 piece T4 benefits swords/fists/maces much more than daggers. Shaker's last post gives very clear reasons why, and is correct.

 

• Aldriana

I'm not going to say what 1s5r isn't a better cycle than 1s3r, but in what possible way does 1s3r "waste energy"? And I'd also point out that 1s3r daggers gets better rupture uptime than 3s5r swords, so I'm not sure I buy the "doesn't get good uptime" argument either.

Fundamentally, the reason why some people advocate that 2/5 T4 is better for daggers is that it allows you to shift from a long, clunky, annoying cycle like 3s5s5r to a very short, compact cycle like 1s3r, with all the advantages of the shorter cycle and better DPS.

Now, trimming from 3.Xs5r to 1s5r certainly increases your DPS as well, but it doesn't have the fundamental effect of getting you out of a bad cycle into a good one like it does for daggers, which is why some people say it's a bigger deal for dagger rogues.

 

• songster

Because a rupture costs the same irrespective of the number of combo points. You've spent 25 energy and only got 3 points' worth or rupture rather than 5. Call it wasting energy or what you will - the key point is that you pay the same and get less for it.

 

• Aldriana

One could make the same argument about the 1s5r cycle; a 1 point SnD costs more energy than a 5pt SnD. It's not a matter of "wasting" energy, it's a matter of spending it on something different. Fundamentally, what all compressed cycles do is trade SS/BS damage for finisher damage, and at most gear levels that's a worthwhile trade - although, at very high levels of gear, the fact that SS scales faster than Rupture means that you will reach a point where it's *not* a good tradeoff, and 5s5r passes 1s5r on damage output. Until you get to that point, however, describing "spending energy on a more damage-to-energy efficient move" as "wasting" energy is a bit misleading.

 

nelalas

In some future version of the sheet, would it be possible to introduce a personalized Attack Table? Perhaps to the right of the Current/Optimal Hit cells or to replace these cells completely. It would be neat to see the results of our hit, expertise, and crit ratings in action when we swing a weapon. I suppose there would have to be two tables for both white damage and specials, and assumptions regarding positioning and target level. Just a thought.

Also, is Improved Sanctity Aura going to be included as a buff at some point? Yes we have a Ret Paladin and he is almost always in the melee group.

 

• Aldriana

I guess I'm not entirely certain what you mean by this, honestly. However, regardless of the specifics, I can safely say that this seems like a "nice-to-have" UI change, meaning that, like most of the other nice-to-have features, it's unlikely to find it's way into the spreadsheet anytime soon, as I'm more or less only doing the bare essentials now. If someone wants to take over UI work on the sheet and add some of these displays, we can work that out; but I have no plans to add such things myself.

Um... maybe. As it's pretty easy to add it's a possibility; on the other hand since A) it doesn't change item valuations in any way shape or form, and B) Ret pallies are reasonably uncommon, it strikes me as not exactly the highest priority there is. All it would really mean is that the 5% of us that raid with a Ret Pally would have an accurate value for "Total DPS"... which, since this never was intended to be an accurate DPS sheet, strikes me as somewhat low in the priority list.

 

◊ Shaker

Quick note - Spinesever is nerfed on the PTR and is now much more appropriately statted for a iLvL 100 epic at:

11 agi, 12 sta, 11 hit, 20 atk.

For my gear, this puts it just below Sunfury Bow and Veteran's Musket/Longbow, quite a ways below Arcanite Steam Pistol for "Ranged Slot", and 2nd place (behind Twisted Blades of Zarak) overall for "Thrown Weapon".

 

Zodar

I like to think my site is "very trusted" by the many people who use it. While I never claim that my charts are perfect, I think they're good enough for use by the majority of Rogue players out there. However, since my charts are mostly static (aside from the customizable XLS versions I provide), they don't factor in talent specs, attack rotations, relative increases in gear, etc. If people are looking for that sort of precision to the nth degree, then I usually send them your way.

Believe me, Aldriana, I respect all of the hard work you and the army of theorycrafters here at EJ do, but at the same time I can see the toll it takes on you and the developers of the Rogue Spreadsheet. Few people will ever truly know how much time and effort we put into creating and maintaining our respective gear spreadsheets with the endless release of patches and expansions that bring along hundreds of new/updated items and changes to game mechanics.

Since my site offers more than just a Maximum Raid DPS Armor chart (PVP charts, Weapons charts, Starter Gear charts, Rogue Twinking/Leveling charts, Resistance Gear charts, Consumables charts, etc.) and I'm just one person, I can only do so much. So I gladly sacrifice complexity for simplicity and ease of use.

I fully understand that the charts and information on my site can only take Rogues so far. When a Rogue has "graduated" from the basic and intermediate level information, and goes out seeking more advanced knowledge, they inevitably end up here at EJ. And I'm fine with that. Each site serves a different purpose and I think Rogues are better for it.

Longevity, simplicity, timely updates and constant adaptation to changing needs. What started as a simple chart has evolved over time into nearly 30 armor, weapons and other miscellaneous charts addressing a variety of issues useful to most Rogues, both new and old.

Agreed.

 

Em.

Has there been anything conclusive done on the Bladefist? (Specifically versus the Big Bad Wolf's Fist? The DPS is less, but the proc might make up for it?) I notice it's not listed on the spreadsheet.

 

• Aldriana

Both The Bladefist and Big Bad Wolf's Paw are in the spreadsheet, hence it should be easy to figure out which is better for you.

 

paldinar

Any update on adding the new stuff from ZA etc?

 

Mideci

Zodar, hello. Long time listener, first-time caller.

Anyway, I discovered your site a long time back. And I appreciated it then and I do now.

The one criticism I want to be clear on is that you order things top to bottom, for instance, as PVE armor. Some things you describe as upgrades over other things aren't for the people likely to get them. And some of the relative ratings are off. We know this both from the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet, and actual expeience.

It doesn't mean your site is bad or useless. Quite the contrary. Your site is helpful and nicely put together and often very up to date and well maintained. But since it is indeed so popular, the prevalance of people running around saying "X is better than Y because Shadowpanther says so" for those cases where it isn't true -- and again, those cases are often the exception and not the reule -- is the downside to said popularity.

I hope you don't misinterpret my post. I appreciate your hard work. Keep it up.