How would I add Core of Ar'kelos and Bladefist's Breadth as they are not procs but activated effects. I think putting the 200ap proc on the one into the ap column along with it's normal ap bonus would skew my results as it wouldn't ALWAYS be active, no? Also I seem to be having a couple items that show No for socket bonus when it really is active. Spymistress's Wristguards for instance, I have a Shifting Nightseye in it to satisfy my RED but it shows no for Socket Bonus.

Regarding socket bonus: read the "frequently asked questions" section in the first post of this thread.

Regarding activated trinkets: Add it as buff * buff_uptime; that is, Bladefist's Breadth is up 15 seconds out of every 90, or 1/6 of the time; so add the AP bonus as =200/6 in the AP column.

Thanks, I have everything working properly now.

Aldriana, I was curious as to what you are doing with Executioner for the next version of the sheet. I saw in the Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers thread that samples for proc mechanics are still incoming and that correspondingly robust mongoose samples are still lacking. What are you estimating the proc mechanics to be for your next version?

I did a search to see if I could find info first regarding this comparison, but that left me wanting, so I'm just going to ask here and hope I'm not in violation:

How well does Dory's Embrace serve the DPS of a raiding rogue against bosses, compared to the Drape of the Dark Reavers? I haven't been very lucky with Aran (I still have the Cloak of the Inciter off Blackheart the Inciter in Shadow Labs), so I'm trying to decide whether to trade in some badges for the Embrace or continue holding out for the Drape.

I'm currently specced combat Mutilate (which will have to change eventually, but works for now), but I've always leaned toward socketing for Hit Rating for the inevitable change either to combat daggers or some other weapon spec. That said, my Hit Rating would remain above 200 even if I lost the hit on my cloak. My biggest question is just exactly how much more/less damage I will be able to do ignoring 112 armor on a raid boss. I guess I'm looking for some kind of percent increase/decrease to overall damage, although I'm not sure if it can be given. I'm hoping someone with greater understanding of the math involved has an idea what kind of change it would bring me.

Ultimately, I may end up getting Dory's Embrace anyway for PvP, but if the Drape of the Dark Reavers dropped afterwards, I'd still like to know how they compare so I can decide whether to pass or roll on it for raiding if someone else is interested.

Re: Executioner. I haven't totally decided. I haven't read the Executioner vs Mongoose thread in a week or so, so I'll need to go back and do that before I finish that section of the sheet. If nothing conclusive gets resolved, I'll probably just put it in with the same proc rate that's currently being used for Mongoose (1 PPM) as an approximation until such time as we know for sure.

Re: Dory's Embrace. I don't know about Mutilate, but for Combat:
Short answer: Dark Reavers is better.
Slightly longer answer: Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape > Cloak of Fiends > Thalassian Wildercloak = Drape of Dark Reavers > Dory's Embrace
Even longer answer: For a more detailed and nuanced answer customized to you gear, wait about a week and then use the 0.9 sheet to investigate the matter yourself.

Anecdotal evidence is useless, anecdotal theorycrafting otoh... that's pretty funny actually.

Come back when you have something real to offer, and post it in the right thread.

Btw my brother did the math on ret palas and it turns out they outdps rogues now, something about getting more ap from str.

Feeding some of your own medicine, less anecdotal medicine, more theorycraft.

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic...as a ploy to take a jab at the previous poster.

Carnivori: That is all well and good, but without others here seeing the math to back that up, it becomes suspiciously anecdotal and thus pointless to look at. If you can provide the math that your friend did, great, people can look over it and decide whether or not its' useful data.

Of course, the thing that arises from your statements is the fact that there is an entire thread about Exec vs. Mongoose and I'm pretty sure that everyone is still up in the air about it. So for someone of unknown origin or ability with unknown data to come forward anonymously and make statements that counter that of an entire thread...ah well, post your stuff and lets' see whatcha got!

Base Armor| Armor after Executioner |DPS Gain in % |DPS Gain in % compared to previous 1000 armor
30000 | 29160 | 0,582266602 |
29000 | 28160 | 0,611349545 | 0,029082943
28000 | 27160 | 0,642667207 | 0,031317662
27000 | 26160 | 0,676454555 | 0,033787348
26000 | 25160 | 0,712978271 | 0,036523716
25000 | 24160 | 0,752542032 | 0,03956376
24000 | 23160 | 0,795492841 | 0,042950809
23000 | 22160 | 0,842228667 | 0,046735826
22000 | 21160 | 0,893207695 | 0,050979029
21000 | 20160 | 0,948959605 | 0,05575191
20000 | 19160 | 1,010099385 | 0,06113978
19000 | 18160 | 1,077344369 | 0,067244984
18000 | 17160 | 1,151535381 | 0,074191011
17000 | 16160 | 1,233663148 | 0,082127768
16000 | 15160 | 1,324901566 | 0,091238418
15000 | 14160 | 1,426649883 | 0,101748317
14000 | 13160 | 1,540586694 | 0,11393681
13000 | 12160 | 1,668739635 | 0,128152941
12000 | 11160 | 1,81357626 | 0,144836625
11000 | 10160 | 1,97812376 | 0,164547499
10000 | 9160 | 2,166128498 | 0,188004739
9000 | 8160 | 2,382271258 | 0,21614276
8000 | 7160 | 2,632461576 | 0,250190318
7000 | 6160 | 2,924246235 | 0,291784659
6000 | 5160 | 3,267385467 | 0,343139233
5000 | 4160 | 3,674680463 | 0,407294995
4000 | 3160 | 4,163185742 | 0,48850528
3000 | 2160 | 4,756025511 | 0,592839769
2000 | 1160 | 5,48518415 | 0,729158639
1000 | 160 | 6,39591737 | 0,91073322
0 | -840 | 7,553956835 | 1,158039465
Source: [RAID] Boss armor values

Armor reduces from debuffs:
Sunder 5 stacks: 2600
Fearie fire: 610
Warlock debuff: 800
Total: 4010
Total w/o CoR: 3210

7700-3210=4490-> ~3,9% DPS increase
6200-3210=2990-> ~4,8% DPS increase

And Mongoose gives 5% DPS increase

I'll let my friend publish the whole thing on the mongoose vs exe if he chooses to do so.

Well, according to my 0.8 sheet here:

Double Mongoose: 1487 DPS
Remove Mongoose from MH: 1452 DPS
Remove Mongoose from OH: 1471 DPS
Remove Mongoose from both hands: 1436 DPS

So, going from double mongoose to no mongoose drops you by 51 DPS out of 1400, or about 3.6%. Which debunks the "Mongoose is 5% DPS" assertion, which makes me doubt the rest of it as well.

I attempted to figure out mongoose's value in the Executioner vs. Mongoose thread, no one has responded yet. The summary of what I got was that mongoose varies based upon your AP, 6.14% at 1400 AP to 4.47% at 3800 AP, and it will be much less than 5% as I didn't take into account uptime into the % increases I found. The values I found were for a single mongoose.

The third column is wrong, that's not actually the DPS gain at all but instead the change in damage reduction which is not the same thing. Also it's calculated as if the attacker is lvl 73, since the attacker is presumably a player this is not yet possible.

And I thought everyone knew my brother doesn't play wow...

Ah, okay, missed that. But I would still argue that holding the value of Mongoose fixed is erroneous, as it floats with the value of other stats just like Executioner does. Anyway, counterargument time:

In my copy of the 0.8 gear spreadsheet (which does start with a base boss armor of 7700) my damage estimate is 1486.91. If I remove Mongoose from my MH, that drops to 1452.03. If I then apply 840 additional armor reduction, my damage then increase to 1530.14, an increase of 78.11. According to the spreadsheet, the uptime of a 1 PPM buff (which, for the moment, we will assume Executioner is, the same as Mongoose) is 43.98%; plugging this in, we find that a 840 armor reduction debuff with 44% uptime is 34.35 DPS. Adding this to the aforementioned 1452.03 DPS gives 1486.38 DPS, which is well within the variance of the spreadsheet of being the same as 1486.91 (double Mongoose DPS). So for the gear, talents, and buffs I have entered, the two options are all but indistinguishable (assuming the proc rates are the same, which we don't know but is a reasonably assumption to get started with). So at the very least, there exist sets of gear where Executioner and Mongoose are extremely competitive in terms of damage contribution; hence, saying one or the other is globally superior (or inferior) at this point in time seems erroneous. Once the proc rates are pinned down and it can be fully included in the spreadsheet, we will be able to say with more certainty; but all we can say right now is "they're pretty darn close".

One thing to note is that % uptime calculations on Armor Penetration are VERY slightly off due to the fact that 840 ArPen 50% of the time is actually nicer than 420 ArPen 100% of the time. This makes executioner a bit more valuable on the MH as you get more stacked Armor Penetration gear, especially in conjunction with WSC. It's not a huge difference, and honestly my recommendation is to not re-enchant anything that has Mongoose on it - it's more expensive than it's worth.

As far as I can tell, Carnivori's simply comparing the effect of the Executioner proc to the effect of the Mongoose proc. 5% DPS boost while under the effect of Mongoose isn't too far off accurate (+3% crit, +2% to white DPS, + 120 AP). Similarly, the figures of 3.9%/4.8% boost while under the effect of Executioner is accurate.

However, the uptime of a MH Mongoose is somewhat below 50%. OH uptime is lower still, so your equivalent combined uptime comes out around the 75% mark. 0.75 * 5% = 3.75% DPS increase overall, which is pretty much on your 3.6% figure.

Duration of the Executioner debuff is the same as Mongoose, so Carnivori's calculation is accurate IF (and only if) they have the same PPM. This is not yet known with any certainty, so the whole claim is bogus.

This happens because you're using the Shifting Tanzanite as the blue - when using that gem, and meeting the socket bonus, you end up with more EAP than if you did the 'optimal' socketing, because the optimal socketing isn't considering the shifting tanzanite for the spot.

So by what you said, IF the PPM is the same then, just like Ald said, they are almost equivalent in addition of % dps as far as we know ...right?

Which would, just like everyone has been saying, mean to not re-enchant over mongoose just to get exec, but if you happen to have a new weapon, you could enchant with executioner and be fine?

As long as you don't use Ex/Ex, then yes, it's not a huge difference what you use, IFF the PPM is the same.

No, his numbers are not accurate in any way. First of all he's using the formula for a lvl 73 attacker. Secondly he's actually computing the difference in damage reduction, this is not the same as DPS gain.

Damage reduction against a lvl 70 attacker:
4490 -> 4490/(4490+10557.5) ~= 0.2984
2990 -> 2990/(2990+10557.5) ~= 0.2207

With Exec up:
3650 -> 0.2570
2150 -> 0.1692

DPS gain:
(1-0.2570)/(1-0.2984) ~= 1.059
(1-0.1692)/(1-0.2207) ~= 1.066

The actual numbers are 5.9% and 6.6% DPS gain (and the DR difference is 4.14%/5.15%).

so....according to that...exec is quite a bit ahead of mongoose? (Working off 3.6% vs 5.8-6.6% dmg increase? Or did I read that totally wrong :\)

Calculating the value of exec for a specific enemy armour value is easy but that value fluctuates a lot depending on boss, debuffs, arp gear and procs which makes it a lot more complex. The value of mongoose otoh is complex to compute under any circumstances. The only way to get a real answer is to model both in an advanced spreadsheet such as the one this thread is about. Aldrianas ballpark figures show them to be very close, beyond that we simply need to wait for the next version. Patience is a virtue.

We could also use some more testing on the proc rates of both enchants for those who wish to help out. There's still a possibility that they are not the same, though personally I'd be surprised if they aren't.