Rogue Gear Spreadsheet - Page 66

Karmon · 12/17/07, 9:14 AM

Originally Posted by songster

Yes, but that's still a potential source of confusion! There's also a further potential error, which is that (I believe) the "Mongoose fades from you" message is not specific to MH or OH.

For example:

0s You gain Mongoose (MH)
8s You gain Mongoose (OH)
23s Mongoose fades from you (unspecified)
29s Mongoose fades from you (unspecified)

Is that 15s on the OH and 29s on the MH (i.e. three procs, with an MH refresh), or is it 23s on MH and 21s on the OH (i.e. four procs, with MH and OH refreshes)?

Ok I see.

But still the UI somehow gets it sorted out. It can track refreshing buffs to the correct bufficon.
Maybe it uses other means to track buffs than the combatlog (UNIT_AURA, UNIT_AURASTATE, PLAYER_AURAS_CHANGED events come to mind).

Maybe there is need for an diffent "procwatch" that does not rely on combatlog messages.

Or wait for 2.4 with the change of the combatlog to sort this out

• Aldriana · 12/17/07, 2:07 PM

I was specifically referring to the issue Songster mentions; I resolved it for purposes of analysis by assuming that the proc that started first finishes first *unless* it occurs between 14.5 and 16 seconds after the second proc started. This should work in most cases, except in the case when both hands have refreshing procs that overlap each other, but there's not a lot that can be done about that. I think made the usual assumption about procs over 16 seconds being 2 procs, over 31 being 3 procs, and so on, which, while not entirely accurate, tends to be pretty close.

• Aldriana · 12/17/07, 2:49 PM

And now, the long-awaited 0.9. Quite a few changes this time around, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if there are some bugs. Hence, if you find anything that doesn't quite add up, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

Version 0.9, 12/17/07:

Excel Version: Free file hosting by Savefile.com
OO Version: Free file hosting by Savefile.com

New features
*Updated to 2.3.2 Hemo
*Added Spicy Hot Talbuk
*Added estimates for Horde racials
*Added new 2.3 items (Arena 3, ZA, Badge rewards, etc.)
*Replaced weapon skill with Expertise
*Added the new Mace Spec
*Added Band of the Eternal Champion
*Added Warglaive Set Bonus
*Added Executioner enchant
*Added Dirty Deeds
*Updated Sinister Calling for 2.3.2

Bug fixes
*Fixed issues with socketing of WW Legs
*Removed armor from Dragonstrike
*Fixed AP of Bloodlust Brooch
*Fixed MH Procs per PPM calculation on Xs5r and Xs3r pages.
*Corrected stacking of Surprise Attacks
*Fixed issue with socketed helms that have no Metagem
*Added a patch to give correct values when Deadly Poison is not in use. Not a total fix, but probably good enough for now.

Other changes
*Assorted improvements to Weapon Socketing code; it's still nonfunctional, but it's closer to working
*Default gear changed to match the upgrades I've gotten in the past two months.

◊ Shaker · 12/17/07, 3:13 PM

Woot! Just wanted to thank you again for a great tool, Ald.

Urraca · 12/17/07, 3:15 PM

Thanks for all the work Ald, new version looks great!

Tosa · 12/17/07, 3:29 PM

I get an "unreadable content" error with Excel.

edit: Downloaded it a third time, and it seems to work now.

◊ Shaker · 12/17/07, 3:46 PM

Quick bug - the note at the top of the main page implies that 308 is still the hit cap, when this is no longer the case. I'm getting 'odd' behavior when trying to gear out so that the current hit and optimal hit categories are marked RED - in gear that has 0 expertise on it, I am getting 343 as a hit cap (i.e. 342 hit the box is white, at 343 it is red).

royaljester · 12/17/07, 4:12 PM

I won't lie...even with bugs, you just made my theorycrafting week.. and my work day like 113412 times better

.

Thanks again ald, for it all.

khaavren · 12/17/07, 4:31 PM

Thanks Aldriana. Looks good. I am however getting no socket bonus from Deathmantle shoulders with Glinting Nobe Topaz and Shifting Nightseye. Also no socket bonus from Nynjah's Tabi Boots with the same gems.

Also under belts, If I select belt of deep shadow, the suggested upgrades don't show the difference in value but the total value for upgrade.

royaljester · 12/17/07, 4:41 PM

Midnight chestguard with 2 glinting pyrestones and 1 jagged seaspray emerald (1 yellow, 1 red, 1 blue) is giving a "no" for socket bonus.

and Can confirm that Nyn'jah tabi boots are not receiving socket bonus with those 2 gems.

Ticia · 12/17/07, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by khaavren

Thanks Aldriana. Looks good. I am however getting no socket bonus from Deathmantle shoulders with Glinting Nobe Topaz and Shifting Nightseye. Also no socket bonus from Nynjah's Tabi Boots with the same gems.

Also under belts, If I select belt of deep shadow, the suggested upgrades don't show the difference in value but the total value for upgrade.

Originally Posted by royaljester

Midnight chestguard with 2 glinting pyrestones and 1 jagged seaspray emerald (1 yellow, 1 red, 1 blue) is giving a "no" for socket bonus.

and Can confirm that Nyn'jah tabi boots are not receiving socket bonus with those 2 gems.

I'm pretty sure this has been answered on every single page of this thread. What the Socket Bonus column is telling you is not whether or not you ARE getting the socket bonus, but whether or not you SHOULD get the socket bonus given the gems the spreadsheet suggests you should use.

Mojofabulous · 12/17/07, 5:00 PM

Originally Posted by Aldriana

Finally got around to parsing this data set (and, in case you were wondering, yes, this is part of the final tweaks to the spreadsheet before 0.9 - expect it tonight or tomorrow - basically as soon as I figure out what proc rate I want to use for Executioner and decide what of the 2.3.2 changes to include), and figured I might as well post the results:

Madness of the Betrayer: Proc rate is between .84 and 1.10 PPM, which matches the currently-used value of 1 PPM.

Band of the Eternal Champion: No procs closer than 59.66 seconds, and a dozen between 60 and 65, meaning a 60 sec internal cooldown. Sorting out eligible attacks from the rest, we find that the proc rate lies between .76 and 1.20 PPM, which jives with the 1 PPM and 60 sec internal cooldown previously measured.

Tsunami Talisman: No procs closer than 45.05 seconds, and about 20 less than 50 seconds, confirming the currently-used 45 sec internal cooldown. Proc rate on eligible crits is between 9.4 and 13.7%, which matches the currently-used figure of 10%.

Mongoose: Well, this one is complicated by the presence of stacking procs from the two weapons, but with a few assumptions and some clever parsing I got some usable numbers out of it. According to my best guess, the proc rate of Mongoose, based on this data set, lies between 1.03 and 1.31 PPM. Now, this just barely misses the widely accepted value of 1 PPM, which means one of three things:

A) This is a flukish set of data, lying in the 5% tail,
B) The stacking procs are causing confusion over proc refreshes which is distorting the data, or
C) The proc rate isn't actually 1 PPM.

It should be noted, for those that might be inclined to lean towards option C, that that range doesn't line up very well with the Executioner proc rates we were deriving, either; best guess I had on that was 1.33 PPM, which is just barely outside the range of this dataset.

So, long story short: we still don't know what's going on.

What can I do to help clear it up? Give me a set of procedures to follow during the combatlog and it shall be so :-)

EDIT: btw, in response to something songster said on the previous page, I'm almost certain I have seen both executioner and mongoose proc back to back, refreshing themselves almost instantly. Pretty certain there is no short cooldown.

2nd EDIT: I'm a lil confused about some changes you made on the spreadsheet. I used to look at the DamageCalcs sheet to see the values of agi, hit, haste, etc for my current gear. Can I still see that somewhere? The current DamageCalcs sheet looks quite different than in previous versions. Also where do I look to see the different DPS values for each rotation? At one point 3.2s/5r was nearly identical to 5s/5r for me and now I'm having trouble seeing which numbers apply to my gear.

Sarlunas · 12/17/07, 5:14 PM

Huge thanks Aldriana, the level of detail in this sheet has always been astonishing.

I'm surprised to see that expertise rating is worth about 25% more than hit. It's higher than I had expected and with enough buffs it makes deftness the second best neck (0.5 weighting). Is it all due to dodged specials or is there something else?

Tiny bug: Vindicator's Pendant of Triumph has hit instead of crit making it a bit overrated.

Arindelest · 12/17/07, 5:44 PM

Originally Posted by Sarlunas

I'm surprised to see that expertise rating is worth about 25% more than hit. It's higher than I had expected and with enough buffs it makes deftness the second best neck (0.5 weighting). Is it all due to dodged specials or is there something else?

That can't be right. I'm seeing the Brooch as ~about 20 AP less than Worgen Claw/Vile Intent. Are you sure you're in Offensive Mode? The Brooch has a ton of stam, so if you're in Weighted/Defensive mode, it could come close to the other necks or, for the latter, surpass them.

And Expertise should be worth about 10% more than hit; where are you getting the 25% number from?

Sarlunas · 12/17/07, 6:03 PM

That was with 0.5 weighting as I clearly stated, I never claimed it was in offensive. The 25% comes from the DamageCalcs sheet, Format -> Sheet -> Unhide to see it.

Arindelest · 12/17/07, 6:13 PM

Originally Posted by Sarlunas

That was with 0.5 weighting as I clearly stated, I never claimed it was in offensive. The 25% comes from the DamageCalcs sheet, Format -> Sheet -> Unhide to see it.

Heh sorry, I missed that

. Yeah, it's the stamina though that's doing it for you.

You're right on the Expertise though, it looks pretty high.

songster · 12/17/07, 7:25 PM

16 hit rating = 1% miss gets converted to hit (applies to white only once past the yellow hit cap)
16 expertise rating = 1% dodge gets converted to hit (applies to both white and yellow hits)

Of course it's better than hit rating point for point. In fact, you would predict it to be better by a proportion corresponding precisely to the ratio of your total physical damage to your white damage. Exclude finishers since surprise attacks makes them undodgeable. Rupture is ~10% of your damage, poison is at most another 10%. White damage is ~60% of your total DPS. So the relevant figure is a ratio of ~ 80:60 = 1.333

So even a napkinmath guesstimate puts expertise rating as 33% better than hit rating. For non-combat builds, dodge applies to finishers as well, and expertise becomes even more important.

If you're ever attacking from in front (i.e. PvP and solo play), expertise applies to parry as well, making it more than twice as good as hit rating, point for point. Frankly, the current implementation strikes me as blisteringly overpowered, unless I'm miscalculating somehow.

• Aldriana · 12/17/07, 7:46 PM

Originally Posted by Mojofabulous

What can I do to help clear it up? Give me a set of procedures to follow during the combatlog and it shall be so :-)

EDIT: btw, in response to something songster said on the previous page, I'm almost certain I have seen both executioner and mongoose proc back to back, refreshing themselves almost instantly. Pretty certain there is no short cooldown.

2nd EDIT: I'm a lil confused about some changes you made on the spreadsheet. I used to look at the DamageCalcs sheet to see the values of agi, hit, haste, etc for my current gear. Can I still see that somewhere? The current DamageCalcs sheet looks quite different than in previous versions. Also where do I look to see the different DPS values for each rotation? At one point 3.2s/5r was nearly identical to 5s/5r for me and now I'm having trouble seeing which numbers apply to my gear.

So, the specific fact that I was commenting on was that you were using two weapons, both with Mongoose on them, which is problematic in that you don't know how to pair up the start/stop messages. I think to get good data on Mongoose (and, in general, weapon enchants) you need to only have one weapon equipped.

Re: Edit: what he was referring to (I think) is a cooldown shorter than the length of the buff; for instance, Mongoose has a duration of 15 sec; if the cooldown on it was 5 seconds, you could still see back to back - and even overlapping - procs. This is certainly possible, although I recall seeing data that made me doubt this; when I get home this evening I'll scrub that data set a bit more and see if I can confirm/deny that

Re: 2nd edit. Damage Calcs should not have changed substantively. All information that was there before should still be there. I think the way I saved it the sheet is kinda scrolled over to the right, so if you don't recognize what you're seeing, scroll all the way left and see if it starts looking familiar.

Originally Posted by songster

16 hit rating = 1% miss gets converted to hit (applies to white only once past the yellow hit cap)
16 expertise rating = 1% dodge gets converted to hit (applies to both white and yellow hits)

Of course it's better than hit rating point for point. In fact, you would predict it to be better by a proportion corresponding precisely to the ratio of your total physical damage to your white damage. Exclude finishers since surprise attacks makes them undodgeable. Rupture is ~10% of your damage, poison is at most another 10%. White damage is ~60% of your total DPS. So the relevant figure is a ratio of ~ 80:60 = 1.333

So even a napkinmath guesstimate puts expertise rating as 33% better than hit rating. For non-combat builds, dodge applies to finishers as well, and expertise becomes even more important.

If you're ever attacking from in front (i.e. PvP and solo play), expertise applies to parry as well, making it more than twice as good as hit rating, point for point. Frankly, the current implementation strikes me as blisteringly overpowered, unless I'm miscalculating somehow.

Well, the miscalculation comes in when you consider that a dodged special doesn't cost you the full damage of that special. When a white attack misses/is dodged/whatever, that damage is gone forever; when a yellow attack is dodged, it costs you a global cooldown and 20% of the energy, but you can immediately reapply; hence in practice it only costs you about 20% of the damage of that special, with a corresponding loosening of your cycle, etc.

So, Expertise should be *somewhat* more valuable than hit, but not the 33% more that you estimate; honestly, the 25% seems high to me. I recall initially estimating it as more like 10%. When I first put in expertise and saw number up around 20-25%, it did seem wrong to me... but I doublechecked the logic and couldn't find anything, so I really don't know what it could be. If you figure it out, let me know.

Expertise is, on the other hand, excessively powerful when attacking from the front; for tanks, for instance, it is over twice as good as hit point for point from an aggro perspective, and additionally lowers the amount of damage they take from parry haste. On the whole, the stat is powerful but somewhat balanced for attacking from behind, but a bit excessive when attacking from the front.

koaschten · 12/17/07, 8:00 PM

There is something strange with the weapon enchants, i played around a little with executioner and mongoose and it will suggest 20 agi offhand when mongoose is clearly superior.

Cyrithor · 12/17/07, 8:08 PM

Originally Posted by koaschten

There is something strange with the weapon enchants, i played around a little with executioner and mongoose and it will suggest 20 agi offhand when mongoose is clearly superior.

I noticed this as well. When I changed my main hand enchant to Executioner, it then listed the current optimal as Executioner still, and changed the suggested offhand enchant to +20 Agility (even though the value is lower than my current Mongoose enchant).

Mojofabulous · 12/17/07, 8:11 PM

Re: 2nd edit. Damage Calcs should not have changed substantively. All information that was there before should still be there. I think the way I saved it the sheet is kinda scrolled over to the right, so if you don't recognize what you're seeing, scroll all the way left and see if it starts looking familiar.

I'm a freaking noob, that is all. Thanks for the reply and for your work on the update, appreciated by all.

• Aldriana · 12/17/07, 8:13 PM

Well, I see what the problem is, but I have no idea why it's happening; I encountered a similar problem before with glove enchants some months back that I never did solve. For some reason adding in new enchants tends to confuse the enchant selection in Excel (as I recall, OpenOffice is not affected). All the calls have no obvious problems in their structure, they just return the wrong answer. I'll look into it and see if I have better luck solving it this time; if I don't, I have a more blatant solution that will get the job done.

Furien · 12/17/07, 8:22 PM

Thanks for the hard work, downloading now.

Garren · 12/17/07, 8:35 PM

Originally Posted by koaschten

There is something strange with the weapon enchants, i played around a little with executioner and mongoose and it will suggest 20 agi offhand when mongoose is clearly superior.

I got this too. Further investigation reveals that it might be a bug/"feature" with the LOOKUP command in excel. I can replicate that behavior using manually entered values on a clean spreadsheet on a totally different machine. I'm running Excel2002 (10.6834.6830) SP3 on both machines.

• Aldriana · 12/17/07, 8:40 PM

Yeah, I think Excel's LOOKUP works oddly and somehow requires that the data be in a certain order to work (which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but there you have it). Fixing it presumably involves restructuring the logic there to use a different command. If anyone out there fancies themselves as an Excel guru and has an idea how to do this, please, let me know.