Quick bug - the note at the top of the main page implies that 308 is still the hit cap, when this is no longer the case. I'm getting 'odd' behavior when trying to gear out so that the current hit and optimal hit categories are marked RED - in gear that has 0 expertise on it, I am getting 343 as a hit cap (i.e. 342 hit the box is white, at 343 it is red).
For the record: this is just a display bug, that I will be fixing shortly; the hit cap was being computed correctly, the Current/Optimal hit cells just weren't factoring in the hit one gets from Spicy Hot Talbuk.
Originally Posted by Aldriana
Re: Edit: what he was referring to (I think) is a cooldown shorter than the length of the buff; for instance, Mongoose has a duration of 15 sec; if the cooldown on it was 5 seconds, you could still see back to back - and even overlapping - procs. This is certainly possible, although I recall seeing data that made me doubt this; when I get home this evening I'll scrub that data set a bit more and see if I can confirm/deny that.
I checked some various mongoose parses, and have found Mongoose procs for basically every interval of time between 15 and 20 seconds; if there were any internal cooldown at all, one would expect to see a bunch of procs around 15 seconds in duration, and then the rest greater than 15+cooldown settings - i.e., a 5 second cooldown should mean no procs between 15 and 20 seconds. Since we don't see these, I think we can safely say that there is no internal cooldown at all. Or if there is, it's so short you can't tell the difference between a min-length refreshed proc and a nonrefreshed proc, which is more or less the same thing in the end.
I was wondering if perhaps you could add a section to the "current" gear list called "none" or something. I have a rogue alt that doesn't get played much, and I'm trying to find the best gear I can get from where I do get to go sometimes. Some of the gear I have just isn't listed. (I'm sure it's because it blows, LoL) But at least that way I could get an accurate optimal and suggested or something. Right now I just have to go and try to find the lamest one listed and tell the spreadsheet I have that.
You wouldn't want to put "None" in for an item - it's more accurate to have a piece of gear with somewhat incorrect stats than no piece of gear at all. Now, the right solution to your problem would be to just add more pieces of gear to the list, which I don't really want to do to the main sheet but you could do yourself - it's been discussed a couple times in the thread how to do this. However, as a general rule, the gear for each slot includes at least one item that should be reasonably easy to get - quest rewards, BoEs, some of the easier reputation items, non-heroic 5 man drops, and so on. So if I were you, I'd start by trying to get items that are at least on the list to start with - they tend to be better than (and, in some cases, easier to get) than any item not on the list.
You wouldn't want to put "None" in for an item - it's more accurate to have a piece of gear with somewhat incorrect stats than no piece of gear at all. Now, the right solution to your problem would be to just add more pieces of gear to the list, which I don't really want to do to the main sheet but you could do yourself - it's been discussed a couple times in the thread how to do this. However, as a general rule, the gear for each slot includes at least one item that should be reasonably easy to get - quest rewards, BoEs, some of the easier reputation items, non-heroic 5 man drops, and so on. So if I were you, I'd start by trying to get items that are at least on the list to start with - they tend to be better than (and, in some cases, easier to get) than any item not on the list.
Wow, you answered quick! Yeah, you are right... something close would be better than none. I'll have to look and see about how to add an item. My biggest problem is that I played her for a while and have gotten quest items and tossed them because I thought they were not as good as what I had. This spreadsheet and many other sources have told me I was just plain wrong on some of my choices. I was big on AP and that was about it. I've slowly found that sometimes the highest AP on an item doesn't always make it better.
I'm slowly trying to repair all my previous mistakes. BTW, I want to thank you for all the work you've done on this spreadshit. It's been helping me immensely lately.
Well, I've been reading through the last two pages to make sure I've fixed all the bugs you all have found, so I happened to see your post pretty quickly. Not that I don't spend entirely too much time checking these forums the rest of the time, but that's a separate issue.
Anyway, speaking of bug fixes: I've made a bunch of changes (listed below), but Savefile doesn't seem to want to let me upload stuff right now, so I guess I'll have to wait to post it. I'll try again tomorrow morning before I leave for work, and, if that doesn't work, I'll try posting it from work. If you come up with any more bugs beyond the ones listed before then, let me know.
*Fixed the hit rating display bug
*Changed hit rating to crit rating on Vindicator's Pendant of Triumph
*Added Garren's fix to weapon enchants.
*Fixed a glitch (or at least, I think it's a glitch; I can't tell what the heck I was thinking when I wrote that section) with ring enchants.
*Updated backstab damage numbers for DontMindMe's discovery regarding Sinister Calling (see Roguecraft 101 if you didn't see it go by).
Yeah, I think Excel's LOOKUP works oddly and somehow requires that the data be in a certain order to work (which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but there you have it).
From your later comments I think you have this sorted out, but in case it helps you or someone else... yes, LOOKUP requires the lookup_vector or array to be in ascending order.
HLOOKUP and VLOOKUP are alternatives which do not have this restriction.
Well, since armory was being silly for me I couldn't see all of your gear, but I did see atleast one piece with armor pen. The more armor pen you have the better it becomes, so if you already have a decent amount then Executioner will be better than if you didn't. Also mongoose becomes less valuable as your AP increases, due to a smaller proportional increase in your AP granted by the 120 agi.
A couple of quick comments on Executioner/Mongoose:
1) Both are currently modeled as 1 PPM, which, based on recent data, is probably not true. However, they seem to have roughly the same proc rate, so their relative value is probably about right; they're both just worth somewhat more than listed.
2) Which is better depends heavily on the total armor pen up on the mob; hence, make sure you have the armor pen debuffs (Sunders, FF, and CoRecklessness) configured as you want them when comparing them.
Offhand, it seems that for 7700 armor bosses with typical debuffs, Mongoose vs Executioner is pretty much a wash; however, for 6200 armor boss, Executioner is a fair amount better. Thus, I personally am of the opinion that Executioner MH/Mong OH is probably the best overall option.
It also depends on your own passive armor penetration gear and trinket procs (Warp Spring Coil for example), as well as what armor reduction debuffs are active on the boss. I believe it was listed somewhere on this site that you could end up wasting part of the Executioner proc if you already have too much armor penetration (IE you could hit the armor cap)
I'm not sure how common such a waste would be, but the mere threat of it seems to suggest that Mongoose might be the safer bet
2) Which is better depends heavily on the total armor pen up on the mob; hence, make sure you have the armor pen debuffs (Sunders, FF, and CoRecklessness) configured as you want them when comparing them.
Offhand, it seems that for 7700 armor bosses with typical debuffs, Mongoose vs Executioner is pretty much a wash; however, for 6200 armor boss, Executioner is a fair amount better. Thus, I personally am of the opinion that Executioner MH/Mong OH is probably the best overall option.
Having additional sources of armor penetration from your own gear would also increase the value of Executioner. I am not sure if the haste from Mongoose will increase the uptime on proc-able equipment, though. These two things may be something additional to keep in mind.
Also note that 6 bosses in Black Temple have 7700 armor while 3 have 6200. In Mount Hyjal, all 5 bosses have 6200 armor. Most Tempest Keep and SSC bosses are at 7700, except Fathom-Lord, Vashj, Solarian, and Kael at 6200 with Void Reaver at 8800. So in a general sense, if you are still working on tier-5 content, switching to Executioner may have less overall value than to a rogue in tier-6 instances.
Assuming a 6200 armor boss, if we have Sunders (2600), Faerie Fire (610), and Recklessness (800), reducing base armor to 2190. With Executioner and WSC both proccing (I'm neglecting Madness for the moment, since 95% of people who have both WSC and Madness also have DST, and will be using it), Armor pen will cap out if you have more than 350 passive armor reduction - which isn't that hard to do, at T6 gear levels.
But: that's not necessarily a bad thing. On average, both Executioner and WSC are only up together about 15% of the time, and in the other 85% case, you're dealing with a low-armor target which is exactly the case where Executioner excels. Hence: even if you're wasting some armor pen in the 15% case, you're that much better in the 85% case, so it can still be worthwhile. Eventually, if you get *enough* armor pen, you get to the situation where you're capping out too strongly and need to drop either WSC or Executioner; however, this takes more than the above 350 armor pen. Normally figuring this out might be hard; but, thankfully, the spreadsheet tracks it for us.
For example, if I take the default gear of the sheet, add Curse of Recklessness, set the base mob armor to 6200, swap Ashtongue Talisman for WSC, and then start artificially adding armor pen, we observe the following relative value of MH Mongoose and MH Exec:
With no armor pen at all (i.e., subtracting out the 350 that's on existing gear), Mongoose scores an Offensive value of 116.27, and Executioner 142.97.
With the 350 that's on the gear by default, Mongoose scores 116.34 and Executioner is up to 147.65
If we then start adding additional Armor Pen from there:
+50 extra ArPen (400 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 144
+100 extra ArPen (450 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 141
+200 extra ArPen (550 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 135
+300 extra ArPen (650 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 129
+400 extra ArPen (750 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 122
+500 extra ArPen (850 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 116
So it's not until you cap out by almost 500 armor penetration that Mongoose finally overcomes Executioner. And sets of gear with 800+ passive armor penetration + WSC are few and far between; so I think in general it's safe to not worry too much about capping ArP.
Assuming a 6200 armor boss, if we have Sunders (2600), Faerie Fire (610), and Recklessness (800), reducing base armor to 2190. With Executioner and WSC both proccing (I'm neglecting Madness for the moment, since 95% of people who have both WSC and Madness also have DST, and will be using it), Armor pen will cap out if you have more than 350 passive armor reduction - which isn't that hard to do, at T6 gear levels.
But: that's not necessarily a bad thing. On average, both Executioner and WSC are only up together about 15% of the time, and in the other 85% case, you're dealing with a low-armor target which is exactly the case where Executioner excels. Hence: even if you're wasting some armor pen in the 15% case, you're that much better in the 85% case, so it can still be worthwhile. Eventually, if you get *enough* armor pen, you get to the situation where you're capping out too strongly and need to drop either WSC or Executioner; however, this takes more than the above 350 armor pen. Normally figuring this out might be hard; but, thankfully, the spreadsheet tracks it for us.
For example, if I take the default gear of the sheet, add Curse of Recklessness, set the base mob armor to 6200, swap Ashtongue Talisman for WSC, and then start artificially adding armor pen, we observe the following relative value of MH Mongoose and MH Exec:
With no armor pen at all (i.e., subtracting out the 350 that's on existing gear), Mongoose scores an Offensive value of 116.27, and Executioner 142.97.
With the 350 that's on the gear by default, Mongoose scores 116.34 and Executioner is up to 147.65
If we then start adding additional Armor Pen from there:
+50 extra ArPen (400 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 144
+100 extra ArPen (450 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 141
+200 extra ArPen (550 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 135
+300 extra ArPen (650 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 129
+400 extra ArPen (750 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 122
+500 extra ArPen (850 total from gear): Mong 116, Exec 116
So it's not until you cap out by almost 500 armor penetration that Mongoose finally overcomes Executioner. And sets of gear with 800+ passive armor penetration + WSC are few and far between; so I think in general it's safe to not worry too much about capping ArP.
Ald, I currently have full t6 and 602 armor pen + WSC, so I have a few questions.
I was considering picking up Madness if I got the opportunity, because I think in 'real world' situations it's a better trinket, since more of it's power is derived from passive stats and a higher proc uptime, therefore I see you getting more out of it on hectic fights that require a lot of movement.
So according to your above data that puts Executioner + mongoose within 13 AP of each other--almost a wash. So if I'm following you, the optimal setup would be executioner main hand + madness (instead of wsc), to avoid the -1000 penetration of WSC capping out?
However, I see executioner being wasted on such bosses as Gorefiend who seems to be more 'squishy'? (Although some data whose accuracy I haven't been able to verify claims his armor is still up there)
Well, my short answer would be "plug it into the spreadsheet, play around with the options, and find out for yourself". In terms of a more direct answer: my instinct would be to say that Exec/Mong with WSC (rather than Madness) will be your best option, but I'm mostly just guessing.
I do agree that Ashtongue Talisman has some limitation in terms of utility on movement-style fights; it's incredibly powerful on stationary cycle-spamming fights, but less good on trash and movement fights due to the need for regular cycles. So, personally, I pull out my WSC for use on such fights and leave Ashtongue for the more static fights. Madness would be a good option as well, but my guild (quite reasonably) has prioritized other classes for Madness as it's such a small upgrade for us.
Hey all, I've been having an argument with a guild mate about the existence of a crit cap for rogues, and was wondering if you could help me out.
I can't seem to find any numbers in the spreadsheet threads, and when my crit spikes up to ~53% in raids (assuming all procs are up) I want to make sure I'm not wasting any of that available dps. As far as I see it the cap wouldn't be until boss dodge - expertise mitigation + your miss percentage, but I have no hard evidence for that. Recount usually shows my crit for boss fights to be in the range of 41-45% depending on the fight so I have a feeling that I'm not hitting a barrier, but maybe I'm just lucky.
Anyway, hit table guru's your help would be appreciated.
So, as far as I know, the only crit cap is as follows:
If your crit rate ever becomes high enough that all regular hits get pushed off the attack table, additional crit has no effect as crit cannot push dodges, misses, or glancing blows off the attack table.
So, with a base miss rate of 28%, a base dodge chance of 6.25%, and a glancing rate of 24-25%, the crit cap would be about 100 - 28 - 6.25 - 25 = 40.75%. So, if you have no +hit or expertise whatsoever, your crit cap will be 40.75%. In practice, if you have, for instance, 205 hit rating and precision (which most raiding rogues should have) for a total of +18% hit, your crit crap is roughly 58.75%. If you also have Weapon Expertise, you gain another 2.5%, and any hit rating or expertise you have raises it further.
Hence, what one finds in practice is that the crit cap for most raidin rogues tends to be somewhere over 60%, meaning it will generally not be an issue except on fights like Loatheb where there is a +crit buff, and on fights where for whatever reason you need to attack from in front (the last of which that I know of what Thaddius).
To preface this, I am not raiding currently with my guild. I also don't think that I will be raiding frequently when my real life gives me time to log on. That being said, I still want to be the most effective that I can be when I am in a group, whether we are doing a 5 man or a raid.
As I was playing with the Spreadsheet, I noticed that I severely lack in the gear department compared to what is listed in the data. I attempted to overwrite some of the existing equipment with my current gear, but this created errors.
I would like to suggest that for one of the upcoming versions of this spreadsheet (which looks great right now), that a method of adding new gear to the lists is incorporated. I know that I would use this much more and it would allow me to hopefully hone my technique with the gear that I currently use.
However, I see executioner being wasted on such bosses as Gorefiend who seems to be more 'squishy'? (Although some data whose accuracy I haven't been able to verify claims his armor is still up there)
Gorefiend is listed as a 6200-armor boss. The other two from BT at 6.2k are Shahraz and Gathios (from Council); Essence of Suffering (Reliquary phase 1) has 0 armor. The other two Reliquary phases and the other BT bosses are at 7700. [source]
Anyway, exploring Aldriana's approach to passive armor penentration, I did some similar gear swapping in the spreadsheet and examined the offensive values of Mongoose and Executioner from 0 to 1288 passive armor penetration, including the [Warp-Spring Coil] in a trinket slot. Armor penentration was obtained at each step from the following substitutions:
The 6th step was just an attempt to find a downward slope on Executioner value in the 6200 Boss Armor/No CoR treatment, which was pretty much 800 armor penetration more than the 6200 Boss Armor/CoR treatment, as expected.
I apologize for the poor quality of the images; I copied Excel graphs into Paint to make them. Similarly to Aldriana, the value of Mongoose surpasses Executioner around 800 armor penentration, assuming use of WSC. Surprisingly, Executioner still retains higher spreadsheet value even on 7700-armor bosses, though the differential is pretty small without the use of CoR. So, back to my previous post, rogues still battling in tier-5 instances (with their greater proportion of 7700-armor bosses) should see less of a difference between these enchants than a rogue fighting predominately 6200-armor bosses or with access to several good-quality pieces of armor penetration gear. Some of changes in enchant value, particularly for Mongoose, are probably just scaling issues caused by using inferior DPS gear for the purposes of maximizing passive armor penentration.
To preface this, I am not raiding currently with my guild. I also don't think that I will be raiding frequently when my real life gives me time to log on. That being said, I still want to be the most effective that I can be when I am in a group, whether we are doing a 5 man or a raid.
As I was playing with the Spreadsheet, I noticed that I severely lack in the gear department compared to what is listed in the data. I attempted to overwrite some of the existing equipment with my current gear, but this created errors.
I would like to suggest that for one of the upcoming versions of this spreadsheet (which looks great right now), that a method of adding new gear to the lists is incorporated. I know that I would use this much more and it would allow me to hopefully hone my technique with the gear that I currently use.
Thanks.
This has been answered many times in the thread, but the easiest way to add gear is to rename something you will never use, t6 for example, and then tab through and change the stats. Make sure to delete any set bonus flags, they are one of the last spaces before the drop location.
12/17/07, 9:52 PM
Similar Threads
