As always, thanks for doing this Aldriana =)

Two minor things. First, though they're worse than the other available weapons in ZA, it'd be nice to include the Umbral Shiv and Rage at some point for people that are mainly limited to badge/za gear. (Unless you're human, it turns out that Rage is virtually equivalent to Heartless in said gear).

Second, having added those in my own copy, I discovered a minor bug in the primary display tab. If you select a weapon with gem sockets (of which there are none atm), it correctly only lets you select gems for the right number of total slots, but it displays 'optimal' gems for 3 slots, regardless of how many gem slots the weapon has.

All three 'optimal gem' fields currently read
and from looking at the other 'optimal gem' slots elsewhere it looks like the second and third should read
respectively. Same issue with the offhand optimal gems as well it looks like.

This is true, I missed that one when adding the gem slotting to weapons. Also, if anyone is interested, please double check that the colors are showing up correctly, the conditional formatting used is really a pain.

I agree that Rage and Umbral Shiv would be good to get in, and it was originally on my to-do list for the version; however, after some help from Darlal and an hour or two of work myself, weapon socketing still wasn't totally working so I decided to just release this version without it, figuring that all you fine people had waited long enough. It is one of about a half-dozen features on my to-do list for the sheet, though, so hopefully in some future release they'll get the rest of the way to functional.

I was hoping that I could get some suggestions on a quick formula to "up-value" on-use items like Berserker's Call due to fight downtime. My logic is this: in a fight where you are frequently forced to do 0 DPS, on-use trinkets' cooldowns are effectively shortened. In other words, you have a larger percentage of DPS time where the trinket is activated. Essentially, I'd like to figure out the break point at which "X sec downtime/min" makes on-use items better than passives.

The concept behind this is something I've been mulling over lately, and have been experimenting with using Berserker's Call over WSC & Ashtongue on various fights, and finding more and more where it is better.

Right now, my first guess would be something like this:

If normal value is:
Value = staticVal + [uptime / (cooldown - uptime) ] * activeVal

Then adjusted value is:
(where times are in decimal minutes)
Value2 = staticVal + [uptime / (cooldown - uptime - downtimePerMin * cooldown) ] * activeVal

Does this look reasonable?

I'm not sure I follow why normal value is:
Value = staticVal + [uptime / (cooldown - uptime) ] * activeVal
instead of
Value = staticVal + [(uptime*activeVal)/cooldown] This effectively distributes the "on use" portion across the entire time.
if that is the case then forced 0 dps times could be
Value = staticVal + [(uptime*activeVal)/(cooldown-timeOOC)] This distributes the "on use" portion across the entire time in combat.

example:
Berserker's Call

static fight (condition 1):
value = 90 + [(360*20)/120]

[top] 150 ap

mobile fight with forced 0 dps for 20 seconds
value

90 + [(360*20)/(120-20)]= 162

now this doesn't take into account that you could have a fight with forced 0 dps so long that it cuts into the trinket uptime.

Minor request, I was looking at the Lower City Exalted ring, Shapeshifter's Signet, and while the change to expertise didn't make it great it will now be one of the best pre-raid rings out there. For me it rated ~12 AP lower than Garona's. I know if it had been available while I was farming kara for rings I would have farmed the rep for it. I would love to see it in a future release of the sheet.

That table is pretty nifty, you missed expertise though.

Indeed I did. Fixed and link updated.

I guess I haven't been doing enough reading because I seem to have missed some of the explanations for assumptions that people are making. So I just have a couple of clarification questions.

First, regarding weapon enchants people are debating mongoose/mongoose VS. executioner/mongoose right? Why not executioner/executioner?

Second, and perhaps related to the above, why is there an armor penetration cap and what is the cap determined by? Is it just artificial, because it certainly doesn't seem to be: "you've removed all of the boss's armor" and thus are capped. That is, no one is talking about armor reduction anywhere near 6200 or 7700, unless I've been adding things up in my head, incorrectly.

Regarding point 1: If your OH Mongoose procs while your MH Mongoose is up, you wind up with 2 stacks of Mongoose; that is, you gain the benefit from both hands at once - we refer to this as Mongoose "stacking" with itself. Executioner does not "stack" with itself; it overlaps itself. If Executioner procs on your OH while your MH Executioner is up, the OH proc replaces the MH proc, so you wind up with only one proc active. This significantly reduces the value of the 2nd Executioner enchant, such that once you have Exec on one hand, it is clearly better to use Mongoose on the other; and it's pretty easy to show that if Executioner is worth using at all, you should have it on your MH. Hence, the only sensible options are Mongoose/Mongoose and Mongoose/Executioner.

Regarding point 2: Remember that boss debuffs also apply. So, if you have, for instance, 5xSunder (2600), Faerie Fire (610), and Curse of Recklessness (800) up on the boss, and both WSC (1000) and Executioner (840) Proc, you now have a total of 5850 armor pen on the boss; hence, if you have 350 passive armor pen, you have capped out by reducing the mob's armor to zero. This is generally not a concern against 7700 bosses, but against 6200 bosses it is pretty straightforward to get into these situations if your guild uses all available armor debuffs.

Was wondering if there is some explanation about the Brooch of Deftness vs. other necks. The spreadsheet doesnt rate it over the Choker of Vile Intent. Did I missed something as I thought expertise was pretty neat nowadays :-) This threads are getting to big for casuals trying to look up a single thing once in a while ;-)

One thing to always keep in mind is that when any item, such as the Brooch, is introduced to the game, it does not automatically mean that it will be of a certain value/quailty based on the other items that are introduced at the same time. Blizz does a fairly decent job at trying to keep itemization on a smooth progression for the players, but sometimes they also have other goals in mind. I would guess that the Brooch is meant more for non-raiders who don't have acess to much better equipment for this slot, but are wanting more stam. But if you have any doubts and as the residents here have said, always check the spreadsheet. I'd trust it more than any perceived value based on cost or boss drop. That's one of the reasons it was developed. Math doesn't lie.

The Brooch in particular seems like an odd tanking item in that it will help you hit things a lot -- which can be an issue for tanks -- but at the expense of any block / dodge / defense. I contemplate getting one for PVP or 5 mans where I have mediocre tanks or healers and need to dumb down my gear (I also pick up stamina while reducing EAP when doing this).

It's a piece of blizzards attempt at giving raid geared tanks who are too mitigation heavy to generate any rage/threat in a 5 man an alternate gear set that isn't just using old blues and/or DPS gear. So it's heavy on Stam and expertise for the parry avoid. It's not a rogue item, and really, it wasn't meant to be. It's not a bad item for rogues... it's just not as good as another item thats availiable from the same vendor for the same price and is therefore pointless unless you are really hurting for stamina.

I don't know if this has been answered yet but I couldn't find it anywhere in the thread. Since 0.9+ I've been some wierd +hit behavior; everytime I exceed 345 hit my optimal hit drops down to 290 and all the slot recommendations are now +10 agi gems. However, with 345 hit or lower my optimal hit rises to a wooping 380 and all the slot recommendations are now +10 hit instead.

Am I doing something wrong here? I'm using Excel 2003, spreadsheet ver 0.9.1

I'd have to see your gear/spec to be absolutely certain, but my theory would be that you're right near the threshhold where agi passes hit in terms of value; hence, with lower hit setups, hit is better and it recommends hit for everything; with higher hit values, agi takes over, and it recommends agi for everything. The sheet has always done such things, it's just that the location of the breakpoints shifted a bit with all the 2.3 changes.

So, I've been using this chart, and noticed that when you have both the Warglaives, it shows as Executioner being more desirable on the MH and Mongoose on the OH, any reasoning behind this? What made it so interesting to me is that when I put it on MY MH, it goes down in DPS (Talon of Azshara MH, Merc. Glad. OH).

Well, the issue is that each piece of gear is optimized individually according to your current gear. It doesn't recommend full sets of gear; it recommends piece by piece. So when you get to that hit threshhold, it's telling you that any individual piece will be improved by swapping some hit for agi - which is true. But once you swap that out, everything else remains better as hit.

I admit it's a bit confusing, but that's sort of the limitation of spreadsheets.

Also note that you have it set on weighted total, meaning that it's factoring in the dodge from agility. If you set it to Offensive to get pure DPS optomization, or changed the defense weighting to other than the default, you would find that this problem goes away (or, at least, moves to another place in the gear space).

So, the first part of that is that it never makes sense to put Executioner on both weapons, as Executioner from two weapons does not stack like Mongoose; the buffs overlap each other instead. So what you may find is that if you're using Mongoose on both weapons, it may recommend Executioner for both weapons; but once you change one of them to Executioner, the other will recommend Mongoose at that point (because the value of the second Executioner is rather low). So, it actually often does make sense to do Executioner MH, Mongoose OH.

The rest is probably the common problem with effects of highly comparable quality; switching from one to the other changes the value of both. However, I can't rule out the possibility that there may be some additional bug; if you link/send me your spreadsheet, I'll take a look.

Well, I knew about the overlapping thing, but that still doesn't quite answer my question. For my spreadsheet, I just used the best Rogue stuff out there at the moment, namely T6 because my guild is 4/5 Hyjal 2/9 BT and I would like to know how to gem to make the most of it, but that's neither here nor there. Anyway, the question of why Exec MH/Goose OH was a good combo for Glaives was when I first saw some Rogue (can't remember the name) with that setup, as well as Lars from Blood Legion. And putting it into my spreadsheet, it was a difference of like 20ish DPS, which to me seems pretty significant given that Goose/Goose is thought to be the best for Rogues.

My guess would be the fact that mongoose is less of a bonus in damage when you have more AP or a higher damage range weapon. So when you have the Warglaives your MH has a very large damage range so the AP gained from mongoose will increase your SS damage by less than if you had a MH with a lower damage range. Executioneer does not scale like that, and it has a more static (than mongoose) value that is really only affected by the amount of armor pen you have. That would be my guess as to why you are seeing what you are.

Mongoose/Mongoose is not going to be the best for all rogues at all levels of gear.

Ahh ok, that makes sense. Thanks much!

No. Attack Power scales linearly given all other stats remain equal.

Sinister Strike (without talents) = AP / 14 * 2.60 + WpnDmg + 98.

As you can see adding more attack power is going to increase Sinister Strike damage in a linear fashion.

The most likely reason you are seeing Mongoose MH > Executioner MH is because the default sheet setting is for a 7700 Armor boss, where Executioner vs. Mongoose is pretty much a wash with some Armor Pen gear; without any Armor Penetration gear Mongoose should win by a clear amount, especially in the absence of Curse of Recklessness which is Off by default I believe. Against the less-armored bosses which are more frequent in Hyjal/BT Executioner MH is usually the optimal choice since it should win pretty easily against Mongoose there.