The Meta gem drop-down bar show various items such as Assault (Bracers), Clefthide Leg Armor, Dexterity and no meta gems.
And I'm using OO
Ah, bugger. This bug was in the last revision but I forgot to check if it was still around - guess it is.
The basic problem is that OO doesn't like the "IF" statement in the Allowed Values Paramater.... as a simple fix, go to Data -> Validity -> Criteria -> Source and change the contents of that cell to "MetaGems"
As an update on the AP-summing issue - I looked through the sheet and it seems to be largely working for me, with the exception of the fact that the AP value of Malchazeen is entered incorrectly (oops!). Those of you that use daggers might want to go to the weapons page and update it's AP value from 30 to the correct 50. I'll fix it in the next major revision either way.
One quick question, I am trying to add some items that aren't in here (sub par gear) and I believe that I have all the fields entered correctly however I can't seem to get the drop down menu to include them. Also I'm using OO if that makes a difference.
So you're saying that Vindicator's + Latro's really DOES have much higher DPS than a set of daggers that drop from Vashj and Rage Winterchill? If so, I need to go do some respeccing. o_O
I prefer swords to be honest, but I'd always assumed that daggers had naturally higher DPS to make up for the awkwardness involving positioning, plus the other constraints both PVP-wise and energy cycle/rotation-wise.
It's certainly true that daggers don't have *higher* DPS potential than swords - they're at best comperable. Whether or not it's actually true that swords absolutely crush daggers in terms of damage (i.e. Vindicator's + Latro's vs 100 dps daggers) again depends on some of the subtleties of how sword spec works, which no one actually knows.
The other caveat I'd throw in is that the dagger cycles model isn't as highly optomized as the sword cycles model, so it's possible that a bit more damage can be wrung from it. It's probably not going to make 50 dps different, but it might be a 10 or 20 dps upgrade.
Originally Posted by Royksopp
EDIT: Sorry, I forgot to ask... are fist weapons being planned to be added?
Fists (and, with the advent of Rod of the Sun King, Maces) are on the agenda... but, I confess, fairly far down on the list. It'd take some fairly major overhauls to include them, so while I would like to add them I'm going to grab other, easier-to-add features first. Once the core functionality of swords/daggers is working well, I'll look at adding fists, maces, and mutilate; until then, it's not really practical.
Originally Posted by Iquark
Well interestingly enough... because there is no validation on the MH/OH miss chance not allowing it to go below 0, hit will still remain worth it's value over 308 with these changes. I might be missing something, however I saw it level off at a number specific to gear once you hit the 308 or above mark.
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying. Miss chance is floored at zero - you shouldn't be gaining additional benefit from hit once your miss chance is at zero. So the calculation needs to be done the way it is to correctly value hit.
One quick question, I am trying to add some items that aren't in here (sub par gear) and I believe that I have all the fields entered correctly however I can't seem to get the drop down menu to include them. Also I'm using OO if that makes a difference.
So, in order to get gear to show up in the drop down menu, you also need to add it to the named ranges. There are two ways to do this; either a) manually update the corresponding named range, or b) add it in such a way that it's already in there.
I'm not going to explain the first one; if you already know how to do it, feel free - but as I personally don't remember off the top of my head how to do it, and there's a perfectly good workaround....
For the 2nd one, the easiest possible thing to do is just overwrite an existing item - take some of the Black Temple items and replace them with the name and stats of the item that you want to add.
In terms of actually adding gear, it generally works if you insert the row in the *middle* of the block of statistics, copy an adjacent row onto the newly-created empty row, and then update the name and stats.
An important warning about modifying the armor lists: inserting in this way tends to work, but if you try to reorder the existing list (via sort or whatever) it will frequently break the sheet. The references in column BF frequently don't update correctly which tends to break things very very quickly.
Great sheet, keep up the good work. A bit disheartening to see the tremendous superiority of swords considering the poor itemization, no offhand sword drop until BT is ridiculous.
I noticed weapon skill rating seemed to be valued quite low, only about 1.3 AP for me. What values are used for weapon skills in the sheet? I assume 0.1% hit since we have some data on that one but what about crit and dodge? Blizz claims skill is supposed to be the best stat and yet refuse to give us the real numbers, very frustrating. Also, have there been any testing to see if weapon skill is indeed rounded down or if it's just a char sheet thing?
Btw shoulderpads of the stranger have 16 crit rating and not hit rating (unfortunately).
I noticed weapon skill rating seemed to be valued quite low, only about 1.3 AP for me. What values are used for weapon skills in the sheet? I assume 0.1% hit since we have some data on that one but what about crit and dodge? Blizz claims skill is supposed to be the best stat and yet refuse to give us the real numbers, very frustrating. Also, have there been any testing to see if weapon skill is indeed rounded down or if it's just a char sheet thing?
I'd be pretty surprised if it isn't being floored, but I haven't seen any formal testing.
Sheet uses .04% crit, .1% hit, and .04% dodge per weapon skill. Should probably up it to .08% dodge based on the findings in the weapon skill thread, but was waiting for better numbers.
Btw shoulderpads of the stranger have 16 crit rating and not hit rating (unfortunately).
Ah, indeed. I'll fix that in the next release. Good catch.
I was lucky enough to gather up both a spiteblade/gladiator quickblade and a malchazeen/shiv
I also have 308 hit rating in both setups (spymistress/maliciousness) with just a bracer swap. I have the haste metagem, and dragonspine trophy. Is there any combatlog recording that I could do outside of a raid that would be remotely useful in comparison of the two setups? Or any information that would be valuable here.
At first glance, the swords just have a hugely optimized skill cycle with 2pc netherblade. I was able to run 1pnt snd's, and easily fit in 5point rupture/5point envenom (although I don't know the value of envenom vs just rupturing more.
I'm very interested in getting definitive comparison of potential between these two specs.
Looking at the weapon skill thread I would say those numbers look pretty good, at least good enough to use for the time being. 0.04% crit, 0.14% hit and 0.08% antidodge fits the data quite well and it makes a lot of sense if you imagine blizz changing their minds and moving the 0.1% crit buff to a 0.1% hit buff and removing the antiparry for antidodge to make it more generally useful. However I remember there was a lot of testing done in the other sheet thread and the conclusion was that skill gave 0.1% hit, how confident were we in this? Would it be possible that mob defense also gives 0.14% miss per point and we didn't notice since all tests were done with WE and sample sizes weren't big enough?
Never actually used excel before but I attempted to input those values and dagger skill jumped up a bit above 1.9 AP so still worth less than hit or even agi, hopefully I made a mistake somewhere. Would be a shame if this stat turned out to be worth less than the others now that it's finally being itemized somewhat properly.
Btw the value of hit seems to have dropped a bit in version 0.5 for me, is it just my gear or was it generally overvalued before?
Looking at the weapon skill thread I would say those numbers look pretty good, at least good enough to use for the time being. 0.04% crit, 0.14% hit and 0.08% antidodge fits the data quite well and it makes a lot of sense if you imagine blizz changing their minds and moving the 0.1% crit buff to a 0.1% hit buff and removing the antiparry for antidodge to make it more generally useful. However I remember there was a lot of testing done in the other sheet thread and the conclusion was that skill gave 0.1% hit, how confident were we in this? Would it be possible that mob defense also gives 0.14% miss per point and we didn't notice since all tests were done with WE and sample sizes weren't big enough?
It's certainly possible, although personally I'm somewhat inclined to doubt it, for the following reasons:
1) We showed pretty conclusively in the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet thread that against same-level mobs, +skill gives +.1% hit. Now, the value *could* be different against higher-level opponents, but if it was going to increase, +.14% seems like sort of an odd amount to increase to.
2) The data I posted in the Hit Caps thread seems to me to be a fairly compeling argument in favor of the hit cap being 24.5% + whatever you get from 10 points in weapon skill. So if weapon skill gave +.14%, the hit cap would need to be 25.9%, and on the whole that strikes me as less probable than .1% and 25.5%.
Btw the value of hit seems to have dropped a bit in version 0.5 for me, is it just my gear or was it generally overvalued before?
I did make some assorted model changes, which... may or may not drop the value of hit. I don't honestly know. I know the value of hit assuming you're using Thundering Skyfire Diamond is down somewhat, but other than that I don't have a good feeling for how the value of hit would have changed.
I was looking over the data that was taken on the Weapon Skill thread ([Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion post 64), and it occurred to me that we're making sort of an unwaranted assumption, namely that weapon skill while dual-wielding works the same way that weapon skill while single-wielding. And maybe it does - but given that some other mechanics seem not to carry over between the two cases, it's conceivable that they don't.
So, first things first. Beaglej had no +hit and no +weapon skill, and his miss chance on the boss was roughly 8%. So, first thing we know: while single wielding, one loses more than half a point of hit per mob level - even though evidence is fairly strong that that's what you lose for dual wielding. Grinding some statistics, we find that the base miss rate probably lies between 7.4 and 8.54 percent. So lets assume, for the moment, that the base miss chance is 8% - that is, each extra mob level increases the amount of hit required by 1%. There seems to be a certain logic to this, at least to me - single wielders lose 1% hit per mob level, dual wielders lose half a point on each weapon, for a total of 1% (sort of).
Now, Therasiv also had no hit, but 365 weapon skill. Grinding some statistics on his miss rate, we find that it most likely lies between 4.79% and 5.66%. Assuming that the base 8% number is correct, this means the hit granted per point of weapon skill is between .156 and .214%. Now, given that range, .2% looks like a pretty plausible value to me.
Now, the initial issue with this is that .2% has been fairly thoroughly disproven in the Rogue DPS thread. The data in that thread points fairly strongly to the answer being .1% per skill. However, since mob level reduces hit chance by twice as much for single-wield as it does for dual-wield, it seems plausible to me that +weapon skill gives twice as much hit for single wield as it does double wield (.2% versus .1%).
Now, how this extends to crit and dodge, I have absolutely no idea whatsoever - I'm not aware of any large-scale testing of these with dual-wielding. But it's the best explanation I can think of for the miss-chance data we've seen so far.
As an additional note: in addition to raising miss chance by 3%, the mob seemed to be lowering enemy crit rate by 3% as well (tooltip crit rates of 5.97 and 5.25 became actual crit rates of 3.278 and 2.258) which is significantly larger than the oft-used .2% per level. More data on this effect would probably be worth seeing.
I've been thinking about whether or not finding/using a Wowwebstats log with rogue dps on a single level 73 target the whole time would be good for analyzing this type of thing. We always go off and test on random 70 mobs for weapon skill in the past and it hasnt been helpful.
Problem is that we have to know the rogues gear and spec at the time of the fight. Also he has to be on the boss the whole time, no adds.
Ald, what would be the confidence level for weapon skill effects on a ten minute fight with normal cycles? (assume like 5% margin of error...)
If it's significant in demonstrating effects I will arrange for it on our next morogrim kill with myself and another rogue.
The benefit from parsing it on any single fight is, alas, limited - over a typical tidewalker you launch maybe 2k attacks, which just isn't enough to pin things down with any accuracy (note the margin of error on the 10k attack data taken in the Weapon Skill thread).
What's really needed is a concerted effort across multiple rogues and several weeks, to accumulate data for, like, 100 tidewalker fights. Ideally, someone should write a plugin that could keep track of 1) your current stats 2) what level mob you're fighting, and 3) your hit/miss/dodged/etc. counts, and just dump it somewhere (either to a file, or a website, or whatever). Then, if we could get 20 rogues to run it continuously for a few weeks, allowing us to see the hit/miss/dodged rates as a function of weapon skill and hit rating over hundreds of thousands or even millions of attacks, we could do the large-scale statistical analysis that would be needed to nail this down.
Yes; the sheet currently assumes that sword spec can proc all the other proc effects you may have, which may or may not be accurate, and whether it's true or not would create a fairly large disparity in dps; rogue DPS is heavily influenced due to the large number of powerful procs available right now (Dragonspine, Mongoose, Poisons, etc.)
Single sword MH with fiery enchant, no specials/skills or haste (text log):
6/4 01:40:09.296 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 405.
6/4 01:40:09.640 Your Fiery Weapon hits Servant of Allistarj for 40 Fire damage.
6/4 01:40:12.015 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 358.
6/4 01:40:12.187 Your Sword Specialization crits Servant of Allistarj for 867.
6/4 01:40:12.187 Your Fiery Weapon hits Servant of Allistarj for 41 Fire damage.
6/4 01:40:12.203 Your Fiery Weapon hits Servant of Allistarj for 41 Fire damage.
6/4 01:40:14.468 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 367.
Seems like it procs enchants, so I put on wound poison..
6/4 01:43:40.312 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 436.
6/4 01:43:43.140 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 412.
6/4 01:43:43.343 Your Sword Specialization crits Servant of Allistarj for 751.
6/4 01:43:43.359 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Allistarj for 69 Nature damage.
6/4 01:43:43.359 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Allistarj for 69 Nature damage.
6/4 01:43:43.734 Servant of Allistarj is afflicted by Wound Poison.
6/4 01:43:45.546 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 354.
Seems like MH sword spec procs can proc enchants and poisons (given WF is a temporary weapon enchant too it should proc, anyone feel like testing with a shaman?). Doing a similar test with sword OH and fist/dagger MH showed no double OH enchant/poison procs (might need better MH enchant proc testing, the dagger testing showed closest MH enchant procs delay at 0.844 after a parry but nothing close to a sword spec proc), ~5k swings with fist MH, ~10k with dagger. In those tests I got several double +15 energy procs all preceded by a sword spec proc so it's likely that combat potency procs from OH sword spec procs (zipped logs).
We know that it procs Warp-Spring Coil and poisons/enchants so guessing it procs on hit trinkets like Dragonspine/Unraveler, although I have no good idea how to test it. Some light testing (~1000 swings) with the Heroism card and the two piece T3 set bonus gave no double procs,
Single sword MH with fiery enchant, no specials/skills or haste (text log):
6/4 01:40:09.296 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 405.
6/4 01:40:09.640 Your Fiery Weapon hits Servant of Allistarj for 40 Fire damage.
6/4 01:40:12.015 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 358.
6/4 01:40:12.187 Your Sword Specialization crits Servant of Allistarj for 867.
6/4 01:40:12.187 Your Fiery Weapon hits Servant of Allistarj for 41 Fire damage.
6/4 01:40:12.203 Your Fiery Weapon hits Servant of Allistarj for 41 Fire damage.
6/4 01:40:14.468 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 367.
Seems like it procs enchants, so I put on wound poison..
6/4 01:43:40.312 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 436.
6/4 01:43:43.140 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 412.
6/4 01:43:43.343 Your Sword Specialization crits Servant of Allistarj for 751.
6/4 01:43:43.359 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Allistarj for 69 Nature damage.
6/4 01:43:43.359 Your Wound Poison hits Servant of Allistarj for 69 Nature damage.
6/4 01:43:43.734 Servant of Allistarj is afflicted by Wound Poison.
6/4 01:43:45.546 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 354.
Seems like MH sword spec procs can proc enchants and poisons (given WF is a temporary weapon enchant too it should proc, anyone feel like testing with a shaman?). Doing a similar test with sword OH and fist/dagger MH showed no double OH enchant/poison procs (might need better MH enchant proc testing, the dagger testing showed closest MH enchant procs delay at 0.844 after a parry but nothing close to a sword spec proc), ~5k swings with fist MH, ~10k with dagger. In those tests I got several double +15 energy procs all preceded by a sword spec proc so it's likely that combat potency procs from OH sword spec procs (zipped logs).
We know that it procs Warp-Spring Coil and poisons/enchants so guessing it procs on hit trinkets like Dragonspine/Unraveler, although I have no good idea how to test it. Some light testing (~1000 swings) with the Heroism card and the two piece T3 set bonus gave no double procs,
Interesting - and good to know. The primary reason why there's doubt here is that some people on the Rogue DPS spreadsheet thread did a test where they stood in such a way that autoattack was off and spammed shiv, and observed no MH poison application, no double OH poison application, and no Combat Potency Procs in like 1000+ shivs - which made it seem like there are some things, at least, that can't proc.
Can anybody explain why my optimal hit is 264? What does this mean?
I can understand why at a certain level for example AP would be better then hit.. but just saying get your hit till here and no higher doesn't make sence to me so if someone can explain?
What the sheet is saying, is that in your optimal gear, your hit will be 264. The issue with this, of course, is that the relative values of hit and ap are based on your current gear. This means that it is possible that if you switched to your "optimal" gear hit would become more highly valued. The reason for the strangeness is that excel doesn't like cyclic arguments. It is possible to add iterations, but it's neither stable in open office nor particularly good for this kind of thing.
Downloaded the version linked on the first page and entered in all of my current gear. (armory) I got down to the mainhand weapon cell and chose Shanker and every cell said #DIV/0
I see the error. Here's the fix for you: go to the "Weapons" sheet and fill cell C17's formula with =IF(MHEQ=A17,1,0). This will be fixed in the soon-to-come version 6!
The major change in this release is the advent of zone filters - so you can pick which zones you want to see loot from.
Additionally, contains fixes for various bugs posted over the last couple of days, as well as more Black Temple and Hyjal loot. Also added a few more gems to the sheet.
Wow, when I saw you guys' idea of enabling certain zones, etc, I thought "That's a great idea" ... seeing it in practice really shows the value of this sheet. This is really excellently done, and totally replaces the other spreadsheet for me (.. it also replaces my own roguecalc project which I've spent a lot of hours on, something I wouldn't drop lightly). Just tossing more praise out there because at this point you guys aren't doing it for you anymore. Really great job.
Last edited by Shaker : 06/04/07 at 7:11 PM.
Reason: clarification
06/02/07, 12:22 PM
Similar Threads
