just for clarification that i don't think was made in the recent gem discussion.
If an item have a red and a yellow socket, and you put a yellow gem in the red socket and a red gem in the yellow socket, you will not receive the socketbonus. So naturally an orange and a blue socket wouldn't give the bonus either as discussed.
I misgemmed a pair of boots this way, thinking that it shouldn't matter if the gems was in the sockets matching them, but i though wrong
Aldriana im a Dwarf Rogue in Balance on Grim Batol <EU> who have been farming Illidan since October i have Full t6 and there is a few things i would like to ask;
1. What is the difference from "Offensive" and "Weighted Total" on your Spreadsheet?
2. Mongoose vs Executioner which is better for T6 endgame rogue? - Ive read the post on Game Mechanics Mongoose vs Executioner it was made before Zul'Aman was implemented. There dosnt seem to be alot of posts about people who have tested both Recently with endgame gear (rogue) but my thoughts are somewhat puzzled to which is better with my gear/weps or upcoming weapons. On the spreadsheet it says Mongoose is better with Talon < Infamy < s3 slicer then you change to Warglaive and Executioner is suggested. I can see the logic to this and how it "could" be better, now i keep everything the same inspreadsheet and i change to Human which is the expertise racial and it suggests Mongoose is better on Talon < Infamy, but then it switched to Executioner on s3 slicer and warglaive. I can also see the logic behind this but could you explain a little how you came to this or even was it tested ingame or just theory?
3. Ring Enchant: +2 Weapon Damage vs +4 all stats Which is better for endgame Rogues? - Roguecraft101 seems to suggest +4 stats is better since it gives 8agility and 8str = 16ap now most rogues in pve will have 2% total agility talent which with 600 agility it will boost it a little more. +2 Damage i see Nihilum rogues using this enchant i asked one why he used it any theory behind it, he simply said because he liked it better and its what you like better. Your spreadsheet shows stats it better also, but why would these Nihilum rogues(all use swords) use +2 weapon damage there must be some theory behind it, any thoughts on this?
Get back to me when you can, thanks.
//HArdy
First off don't sign your posts, we can all look to the left and see your name.
1. Offensive calculates only the raw damage the gear will give you, weighted gives some value to the armor and dodge agi gives as well as giving some value to stamina. I'm not sure the exact numbers but it does not change the numbers very much
2. Mongoose and Executioner will be very close in value for most levels of gear, mongoose usually wins out for most rogues. Executioner will typically win if you have more armor pen, also it scales slightly better as an overall damage increase than mongoose does. I suspect if you look at the EAP listed for the enchants mongoose and executioner will be close in value for the gear you are looking at. There was a reasonably large discussion about this in this thread (I think) a while ago, try 5-9 pages back.
3. Nihilum is not known for ultimate theorycrafting knowledge, they are known for progression. This is your answer plain and simple. Everytime someone mentions Nihilum they always are asking why a member is doing something that everyone here says is wrong. I trust the people here much much more. I give Nihilum all the respect in the world for the effort they put into the game, however playing alot does not mean you have a better understanding of exactly what is the best and what is not.
I'd like to play around with different DPS cycles in the spread sheet just to see how much difference there is in theoretical output, is there any way to manually select the DPS cycle you want?
You don't need to change anything, just unhide the DamageCalcs sheet to find this beauty at the bottom:
1. What is the difference from "Offensive" and "Weighted Total" on your Spreadsheet?
"Offensive" scores items purely on the amount of DPS they contribute. "Weighted Total" additionally includes a small weighting for stamina, dodge, resilience, and other "survivability" stats.
2. Mongoose vs Executioner which is better for T6 endgame rogue? - Ive read the post on Game Mechanics Mongoose vs Executioner it was made before Zul'Aman was implemented. There dosnt seem to be alot of posts about people who have tested both Recently with endgame gear (rogue) but my thoughts are somewhat puzzled to which is better with my gear/weps or upcoming weapons. On the spreadsheet it says Mongoose is better with Talon < Infamy < s3 slicer then you change to Warglaive and Executioner is suggested. I can see the logic to this and how it "could" be better, now i keep everything the same inspreadsheet and i change to Human which is the expertise racial and it suggests Mongoose is better on Talon < Infamy, but then it switched to Executioner on s3 slicer and warglaive. I can also see the logic behind this but could you explain a little how you came to this or even was it tested ingame or just theory?
So, the way it works in the spreadsheet is that it computes the uptime of both procs and from there computes the benefit. The proc rates are a bit off right now, but they're equally off for both so that shouldn't affect the ordering. In general, as gear improves, Executioner becomes better than Mongoose. In particular, the more Armor Penetration you have, the more like Executioner is to be superior.
The offense/weighted distinction is important here, it might be noted; for instance, in my current gear which includes 476 passive Armor Pen and WSC, in terms of weighted total, MH Mongoose is still ahead by about 8 AP. However, if switched to Offensive, Executioner wins by about 1 AP, as the 6% dodge with 40% uptime is felt to be worth about 9 AP.
However, there's a bit more to this as well; by default, the sheet is scoring stuff based on a 7700 armor opponent, which, throughout 25-man raid content, is the more common boss armor. However, particularly at the T6 level, there are a lot of mobs with 6200 armor instead. So it might additionally be worth looking at the comparison at 6200 armor. This changes things dramatically; now Executioner wins by 17 AP Offensive and still 8 AP in Weighted Total. So against high-armor bosses Mongoose might be slightly better, but it's very close and on all the low-armor bosses Executioner is a clear winner, which is why I personally selected Executioner for MH.
So, basically: depending on how much armor penetration you have, whether you are looking at Weighted Total or Offensive, and how you have boss armor set, when exactly Executioner catches Mongoose varies; however, it is generally true that as you move towards the best possible itemization (which includes 602 passive armor penetration) Executioner will eventually take the lead.
3. Ring Enchant: +2 Weapon Damage vs +4 all stats Which is better for endgame Rogues? - Roguecraft101 seems to suggest +4 stats is better since it gives 8agility and 8str = 16ap now most rogues in pve will have 2% total agility talent which with 600 agility it will boost it a little more. +2 Damage i see Nihilum rogues using this enchant i asked one why he used it any theory behind it, he simply said because he liked it better and its what you like better. Your spreadsheet shows stats it better also, but why would these Nihilum rogues(all use swords) use +2 weapon damage there must be some theory behind it, any thoughts on this?
+4 stats is more damage, and some survivability to boot, for sword rogues. For dagger rogues you can make more of an argument for +2 damage, but even there I think 4agi is usually superior. My theory is that the Nihilum rogues don't actually know much about theorycraft, a theory that there is a fair amount of evidence to support.
I'd like to play around with different DPS cycles in the spread sheet just to see how much difference there is in theoretical output, is there any way to manually select the DPS cycle you want?
You should include the riding crop on the list of trinkets, since I seem to find myself wearing it half the time when I should be dpsing
The only real contribution I have to make is to suggest a sum at the bottom of the talent point column. It's a quick idiot check to see if you've fubar'd your talent build.
You should include the riding crop on the list of trinkets, since I seem to find myself wearing it half the time when I should be dpsing
The only real contribution I have to make is to suggest a sum at the bottom of the talent point column. It's a quick idiot check to see if you've fubar'd your talent build.
the feature already exists, check the bright green boxes at the bottom of the talent tree's
First, where can we change the armor value for bosses/mobs?
Second, my guild is 5/9BT 5/5 Hyjal, would you recommend setting the boss/mob armor value to 6200 if I am looking for advice from the spreadsheet on the best gear in general for BT/Hyjal (that is, not min/maxing for one boss over another).
The armor can be set in advanced settings tab, should be an entry reading boss armor value. I can't remember if that is pre or post sunders, should be easy enough to tell based on what it says though.
So, it appears that the forum clock got messed up and then reset about noon today, so let me see if I can clarify the post ordering. After post 1897, the sequence is:
1902
1904
1905
1898
1899
1900
1901
1903
and the continuing correctly at 1906 and beyond
Everyone clear? Good, now answers:
Re: #1899: The ArPen number I was giving was pure passive ArPen, neglecting trinket procs and boss debuffs. The best way for you to figure this out is really really really just to download the sheet, enter your gear, and figure it out. At a guess: you have a lot of ArPen, so I would expect Executioner to be better, but I'm really just guessing. Difference tends to be at most 10 DPS or so either way.
Re: #1900 part 1: See the Advanced Settings page
Re: #1900 part 2: Your call. Everything in Hyjal plus Teron, Mother, and Council is 6200. Basically: about half of T6 is 6200, and the other half is 7700.
Temporary seems to be referring to the DPS spreadsheet, he is either confused or being intentionally disruptive.
It is irrelevant because the gear spreadsheet only lists talents that are DPS related, not a full build worth of talents; you cannot necessarily spend 61 talent points in the spreadsheet and have a build that can be duplicated in game.
Some potential Sunwell items have appeared on MMO-Champion [http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...well_loots.jpg] and although none of them have been confirmed (and likely won't be until the PTR), I thought it would be fun to explore the two potentially new swords in the spreadsheet. According to my 0.9.2 spreadsheet, Muramasa (Optimal Offense score of 1239.4, Optimal Total score of 1252.92) comes out a large ways ahead of the season 3 arena MH sword (Opt. Off. 1185.3, Opt. Tot. 1201.219) but does not near the MH Warglaive (Opt. Off. 1334.9, Opt. Tot. 1350.708). The Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade (Opt. Off. 484.11, Opt. Tot. 502.1072) falls short of the Blade of Savagery (Opt. Off. 501.61, Opt. Tot. 511.1141) but settles in as the 3rd best OH sword ahead of the season 3 OH sword (Opt. Off. 456.53, Opt. Tot. 472.424). I am not sure how to assess the trinkets as proc rates and internal cooldowns are unknown. Additionally, I did not investigate daggers because they frankly do not interest me -- someone else can do it.
Of course these numbers are for my talent spec and my gear; individual results may vary.
Yeah, I saw those... despite what people are saying, I'm highly skeptical about those being real. Or at the very least, I expect them to undergo considerable changes before release; I just don't see them adding a trinket that gives tanks, effectively, +6.5% hit. I'm not saying they couldn't be real; it just seems to me like they're a little bit overboard with Expertise and Haste, and curiously devoid of the Armor Pen that's been popular in T6 and ZA.
Well, my thought is that these items are a last-stop pickup for level 70 characters and may be intended to reward raiding players with an edge during the 70-80 grind. In other words, if Wrath of the Lich King is the next installment after Sunwell, then these items may only see use during leveling or early raiding at level 80. How useful will these rating-based items be in 10 levels? Perhaps Sunwell is intended to be a level 70 Monty Haul. /shrug
So, I've made some of the discussed changes, namely the recommendations overhaul, the OO/Excel compatability fix, the poison modeling fix, some assorted bug fixes pointed out by SoulAssassin, and adding Waistguard of the Great Beast.
The Buffs overhaul and other assorted changes I've discussed is *not* in here, nor is any update around the socketing rules. However, I wanted to get a drop of this in circulation, as given the magnitude of changes I've made in the last week, I'd be honestly surprised if I haven't screwed something up. Hence, I'm leaving a link to 0.9.2 as the "last stable" version, but I'm releasing 0.9.3 so people can take a look at it and find any major errors I may have introduced.
Is there any sort of ingame mod for dps gear #'s? Not to sound lazy, but tabbing out to use the general equivalence charter on the first page, or the excel spreadsheet manually putting in all my stuff is getting a bit tedious. Also, I seem to be getting some mixed numbers.
Like, for instance, according to the chart on the first page, for me being sword spec, it shows my Gronn-Stitched Girdle (with 1 glinting noble topaz and 1 shifting nightseye) being better than say, Bladeangels Money Belt, (with 1 shifting nightseye). But, on the excel sheet, it shows the Money Belt to be better. Urgh.
So, I've made some of the discussed changes, namely the recommendations overhaul, the OO/Excel compatability fix, the poison modeling fix, some assorted bug fixes pointed out by SoulAssassin, and adding Waistguard of the Great Beast.
The Buffs overhaul and other assorted changes I've discussed is *not* in here, nor is any update around the socketing rules. However, I wanted to get a drop of this in circulation, as given the magnitude of changes I've made in the last week, I'd be honestly surprised if I haven't screwed something up. Hence, I'm leaving a link to 0.9.2 as the "last stable" version, but I'm releasing 0.9.3 so people can take a look at it and find any major errors I may have introduced.
Excellent job on the new recommendation layout - I really like the new format for rings and trinkets.
I noticed a 10 DPS downgrade when switching over. I double checked everything (gear, buffs, advanced settings) to make sure I didn't miss anything. Can I assume that's from the new poison modeling mechanics?
Yes, the old poison model was overestimating poison damage, so you will notice a slight drop in DPS; how big a drop depends, basically, on how often you hit with the poisoned weapon. So for me with a 1.4 speed OH and a fair amount of haste, it's only about a 6 DPS drop; with a 1.5 speed OH and fewer haste effects, it will presumably be a bit more. So a 10 DPS difference sounds totally reasonable to me.
Hey Aldriana,
Thanks for all the effort you have put into this spreadsheet, very nice
I'm currently in mh/bt content but having a huge problem - no trinket ever dropped, I mean gruul/ssc/tk, even rumulo's one I have not seen tho done kara like 100+ times. I'm still using [Hourglass of the Unraveller] and [Bloodlust Brooch] :/
So I'm thinking how to improve my trinkets and got to [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. However it is not present in the sheet so I can't compare and barely ever mentioned (except from you for dagger rogue). Can you or someone else give an estimate of how good it can be for combat swords?
Thanks
On Executioner uptime calculation:
In your sheet you calculate the uptime as:
1-(1-pm-po)^15 (pm = prob. main hand procs per second; po likewise for offhand)
Shouldn't that be
1-[(1-pm)*(1-po)]^15 ?
Edit: for the usual case only MH executioner there is no difference. Only if both hands have executioner (normaly noone should do that) it gives a slight lesser uptime.
But if someone wants to see the effect of Ex/Ex he should get an accurate result
01/22/08, 4:10 PM
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