Hey Aldriana,
Thanks for all the effort you have put into this spreadsheet, very nice
I'm currently in mh/bt content but having a huge problem - no trinket ever dropped, I mean gruul/ssc/tk, even rumulo's one I have not seen tho done kara like 100+ times. I'm still using [Hourglass of the Unraveller] and [Bloodlust Brooch] :/
So I'm thinking how to improve my trinkets and got to [Darkmoon Card: Crusade]. However it is not present in the sheet so I can't compare and barely ever mentioned (except from you for dagger rogue). Can you or someone else give an estimate of how good it can be for combat swords?
Thanks
Actually, it's quite easily modeled. In a tank & spank boss fight, the proc will be up and fully stacked all the time, so it simply equals 120 passive Attack Power.
To add it to the spreadsheet, you go to the Trinkets table (Right click on Talents_Equipment at the bottom left corner, click "Show..." and select "Trinkets") and change one of the Trinkets. For Berserker's Call for example, you'd change the following:
A5 to "Darkmoon Card: Crusade"
K5 to "120"
That's it
Just a comment. I just find it a bit funny on the spreadsheet for me cause I have dual mongoose, and it suggests executioner. When I select executioner, it suggests to go mongoose. Guess it's an either or situation and this kinda drives a point that at my T5ish level these 2 are pretty equal.
In the case when the sheet suggests item B when item A is equipped, then item A is suggested when item B is equipped.. yea, they're both nearly identical. Look at the expected DPS if you want an *exact* answer.
Re: Darkmoon card... remember, it will NOT always be fully stacked on all fights. Also, on-use trinkets such as Bloodlust Brooch tend to be worth *slightly* more since you are not using it for 20 seconds every 2 min, but likely slightly more. For instance on a 5 minute fight, you'll get 3 uses out of it, not 2.5. Also, you can time the AP boost for things like blade flurry and haste pots since Haste and AP scale quite nicely together.
For a 3 dps upgrade in the BEST of situations, just keep what you have.
Just a comment. I just find it a bit funny on the spreadsheet for me cause I have dual mongoose, and it suggests executioner. When I select executioner, it suggests to go mongoose. Guess it's an either or situation and this kinda drives a point that at my T5ish level these 2 are pretty equal.
Latito is right about the spreadsheet values. If you are still working on T5 content I would argue that you'll get more benefit from Mongoose than Executioner. Double-check what boss armor value you have running in your spreadsheet -- it is likely that it is set to 6200. If so, try looking at the enchants under 7700 boss armor since a greater proportion of T5 bosses sit at 7700 armor relative to T6 bosses. Most likely the higher boss armor will nudge Mongoose ahead of Executioner and you won't observe this "indecision."
Latito is right about the spreadsheet values. If you are still working on T5 content I would argue that you'll get more benefit from Mongoose than Executioner. Double-check what boss armor value you have running in your spreadsheet -- it is likely that it is set to 6200. If so, try looking at the enchants under 7700 boss armor since a greater proportion of T5 bosses sit at 7700 armor relative to T6 bosses. Most likely the higher boss armor will nudge Mongoose ahead of Executioner and you won't observe this "indecision."
The sheet's default value is 7700 armor. Executioner's relative value to Mongoose depends a lot on the use (or non-use) of CoR. If you can convince your guild to use CoR, then Executioner MH becomes pretty viable in T5 content.
Is Executioner even worth the hassle? It's so situational (requires low armor mob or CoR) and considering that Mongoose also gives quite useful dodge, I don't really see myself enchanting Executioner on my weapons. Granted, we don't have CoR in our raids but when I check both spreadsheets the difference between Mongoose and Executioner is so minimal even in perfect situations (6200 armor mob, CoR up) that it just doesn't seem to make sense. Mongoose seems to be more stable dps gain while Executioner requires perfect environment, and you lose the defensive side of 120 agility.
Of course both enchants are close together, but as it has been stated before, Executioner scales very nicely with end game gear. For my gear for example, Executioner is always a couple of DPS ahead of Mongoose, even in the worst situation (7700 armor, no CoR). So there's no point in enchating Mongoose, now is there? :P
Of course both enchants are close together, but as it has been stated before, Executioner scales very nicely with end game gear. For my gear for example, Executioner is always a couple of DPS ahead of Mongoose, even in the worst situation (7700 armor, no CoR). So there's no point in enchating Mongoose, now is there? :P
With my gear (full T6 & S3 Swords) in DPS Spreadsheet Executioner gives lower DPS output than Mongoose, even in optimal fight (CoR + 6200 armor mob). On Gear Spreadsheet Executioner is only better if you have CoR, without it it's worse than Mongoose on 7700 armor mob. Granted, on Gear Spreadsheet when fighting against 6200 armor mob with CoR Executioner pulls 6 DPS lead, but still I don't see it worth to enchant over Mongoose considering Mongoose is always good in every situation + it gives sometimes useful dodge and armor.
Edit: To clarify I'm refering in to Combat Sword spec so 2/2 Vitality is affected.
Hallo. Love the spreadsheet, thanks for putting in so much work. On the sheet, it says that if I use t5 shoulders with s3 helm (replacing t4 shoulders and helm and breaking 4-piece bonus) that I'll get better dps. How accurately is the t4 4-piece bonus modeled? I'm going to try out this combination tonight and compare to previous wws of similar fights / raids (we have a fairly stable raid makeup, so easy comparison for me I think). Just curious if this seems right to people, I'd avoided breaking the 4-piece bonus before because I didn't think that wearing pvp gear and t5 shoulders would be enough to justify doing so. Thanks.
Honestly, from experience, the T4 4pc bonus does more to mess up your cycles than tidy them up (since with 2pc T4 you should almost certainly be running 1s/5r), and I have personally gone through this decision lately (going from 5pc T4 --> 2pc T4 + Shoulderpads of Stranger + S3 Chest/Hat --> 4pc T5 and S3 chest), and it's been a VERY significant DPS boost, without my weapons changing. Many rogues have somewhat poo-poo'd T5 gear due to the lack of +hit on the pieces, and my hit rating has certainly gone down quite a bit - but my DPS is consistently improving, and I've been very happy with it.
Hallo. Love the spreadsheet, thanks for putting in so much work. On the sheet, it says that if I use t5 shoulders with s3 helm (replacing t4 shoulders and helm and breaking 4-piece bonus) that I'll get better dps. How accurately is the t4 4-piece bonus modeled? I'm going to try out this combination tonight and compare to previous wws of similar fights / raids (we have a fairly stable raid makeup, so easy comparison for me I think). Just curious if this seems right to people, I'd avoided breaking the 4-piece bonus before because I didn't think that wearing pvp gear and t5 shoulders would be enough to justify doing so. Thanks.
The T4 4pc bonus doesn't stack with Ruthlessness, which makes it much less useful. T4 2pc, however, is much more useful and you won't be breaking that. If you do, you will notice a decrease in DPS unless you make a massive upgrade like from T4 to T6. It is very accurately modelled (the same as Ruthlessness).
The T4 4pc bonus doesn't stack with Ruthlessness, which makes it much less useful. T4 2pc, however, is much more useful and you won't be breaking that. If you do, you will notice a decrease in DPS unless you make a massive upgrade like from T4 to T6. It is very accurately modelled (the same as Ruthlessness).
Can we please not post blatant misinformation on this thread? Thanks.
4pc T4 is a seperate chance to give you an additional combo point, and it can happen independently (you won't notice it), or at the same time as Ruthlessness, giving you TWO combo points (so in this sense it does stack).
Break 2pc T4 as soon as you can get 4pc T5, or if you can get a few choice items from T5 and perhaps the S3 Hat/Chest (they're both big upgrades to T4 pieces). For more precise information, consult the spreadsheet.
Ok. Yeah, I actually think not stacking with ruthlessness makes it a little better (as I can occasionally get 2 cps on a finisher, and the not stacking doesn't actually make it less chance to get a cp). But I can see where the difference in stats, along with a somewhat more reliable rotation might make it worth it. Tbh, I'm one of those that is very disappointed with the lack of hit on t5, but I think at this point that I have enough other gear with hit on it to make up for the lack. E.g. Nynjah's Tabi Boots, wsc, drape of dark reavers, belt of deep shadow (2 rigid dawnstones), etc. Well, at least I can be happy that I don't look like a retarded bird anymore.
Personal preferences - I think an enhancement shaman is a pretty good bet for most people in progressive groups. Also, I'm not sure Improved Hunter's Mark is really that common - it's a very small buff (like what, 110 AP?) for 5 points that the hunter can spend on a better talent at that point in the tree. I know our hunters don't have it, and 2 of them are very min/max-y.
If your hunters are min-max-y it'd be kind of dumb for at least one of them not to have it. That's nearly an extra flask for every single melee dpser in your raid. Considering most raids have one full melee dps group, plus 2-3 tanks, seems to me like giving them all 110 more AP would generate more rDPS than any other use of those 5 talent points.
If your hunters are min-max-y it'd be kind of dumb for at least one of them not to have it. That's nearly an extra flask for every single melee dpser in your raid. Considering most raids have one full melee dps group, plus 2-3 tanks, seems to me like giving them all 110 more AP would generate more rDPS than any other use of those 5 talent points.
Agreed, 110 AP is a nice buff for all melee dps. Unfortunately, it comes at the cost of a Hunter's Efficiency talent - reduced mana cost on all their shots. The debate on hunters needing this talent definitely depends on the hunter getting BoW (a 3rd or 4th choice pally blessing), having JoW on the boss, having a shadow priest and the hunter using mana pots of some sort. If the hunter isn't struggling for mana, imp Hunter Mark is nice.. but usually the hunter is more concerned (often rightfully so) about his/her own mana. The more annoying issue is varying boss fight lengths. While efficiency might not be needed at all on Teron or Kazrogal or any of the other similarly short fights... mana is certainly going to be a bigger issue on a longer fight like Council or Illidan.
The right answer depends a lot on what sort of mana-providing buffs your hunter(s) get and how much melee dps your raid has.
Agreed, it does definitely come at a cost; but here's the way I'd look at it:
Say you have 4 melee DPS in the raid, which strikes me as pretty common. Then the total amount of AP added to the raid by imp mark is about 440 AP; hence, Imp Mark effectively adds 88 AP to the raid per point. And I'm willing to bet that if hunters had a choice between an 88 AP personal AP talent and... whatever there other options might be, most of them would find a way to work in the 88 AP talent. Even if it means getting Wisdom instead of Might, it's still worth it, since the total AP added to the raid is twice as large.
It's sort of like Solarian's Sapphire; if you think of it as adding 70 AP to the warrior himself, it's not that impressive; but when you think of it as adding 70 AP to each of 5 people for an effective benefit of 350 AP, you realize it's the best DPS warrior trinket in the game (for raiding).
The problem is, of course, that not everyone is good at thinking in terms of maximal raid benefit; not everyone is willing to deal with a personal DPS drop, even if it's matched 2-3 times over by an increase of raid DPS. And I think this is why many hunters don't get it, because it's hard to argue that it isn't worth it from a raid perspective.
We're moving into SSC at the moment and I currently have 4/5 T4 (no chest). I'm looking at available gear and trying to work out which 2 pieces I'll drop. We have downed Hydross so Shoulderpads of the Stranger are an early possibility. What are the 2 pieces of T4 with the longest viability? I have the badges to get Trickster's Stickyfingers and Skulkers Greaves are in the bank.
Rough DPS = 1272
Night Elf
Weighted Total
Netherblade Facemask
Worgen Claw Necklace
Netherblade Shoulderpads
Drape of the Dark Reavers
Chestguard of the Conniver
Master Assassin Wristwraps
Netherblade Gloves
Girdle of Treachery
Netherblade Breeches
Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots
Ring of a Thousand Marks
Garona's Signet Ring
Romulo's Poison Vial
Dragonspine Trophy
Gladiator's Slicer
Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade
Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix
The helm will last forever because there is no alternative until Deathmantle. The shoulders will go immediately for the Stranger ones. The gloves will last until you down Leotheras, which could either be a while or not. The legs, however, will last until you have 4/5 T5, because the Deathmantle ones are only the very slightest of an upgrade. Keep the helm and legs and count on replacing your others.
Long answer: It sort of depends on your drop luck. Lets take a look at the items in question for a moment:
Netherblade Facemask has no significant upgrade before Vashj (unless you're an engineer) at which point it's beaten by about 40 AP by Deathmantle Helm.
Netherblade Shoulderpads are beaten fairly handily by drops off Hydross (Shoulderpads of the Stranger, 40 AP) and Void Reaver (Deathmantle Shoulderpads, 25 AP)
Netherblade Chest is beaten by about 35 AP by Bloodsea Brigand's Vest off of Karathress, or about 20 AP by Shadowtooth Troll Cuirass in ZA.
Netherblade Gloves are beaten by... a lot of things, but if you're looking for things that beat them significantly (10+ AP) you're looking at Trickster's Stickyfingers (30 AP), Gloves of the Searing Grip off Al'ar (35 AP), and Deathmantle Handguards off Leo (55 AP).
Netherblade Pants are beaten by Shallow-Grave Trousers, Skulker's Greaves, and Deathmantle Legs (from Karathress), all by about 15 AP.
So, the helm is the best until end T5, and is thus a pretty good choice. Among the other slots: there are several significant shoulder upgrades in early T5, so they tend to get replaced in a fairly timely fashion, so are probably not a good choice. Gloves have a decent upgrade already available to you, but if you opt not to go that route it will be fairly late T5 before you have something better... but it's a *lot* better. Legs have many viable alternatives, including one you already have - but none of them are particularly large upgrades. And Chest has a couple of fairly moderate upgrades, but which one you can get will be fairly luck-dependent (as, not being tier pieces, whether or not you get them is pretty hit or miss).
So, my general approach would be: in T5 content, you generally want to work towards Bloodsea Brigand Vest or Shoulderpads of the Stranger, and wear T5 pieces in the other 4 slots. Hence, which two pieces of T4 you will use the longst has the most to do with which pieces of T5 take you the longest to get. So see what drops, see what you can get, and keep whichever you need to in order to continue your gear improvement. Helm will probably be the last thing you replace, but the others really can happen in any order.
I used legs/chest, mostly because I was able to get the S3 hat, and it's a significant upgrade over T4. If you're not killing Magtheridon, however, definitely take Vul's advice.
Thanks for the replies guys, based on what is most likely to drop first and our level of content I suspected Mask and Pants would be the ones to keep. Nice to know I'm on the right track with the theorycrafting.
01/27/08, 10:07 AM
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