• Aldriana

Short answer: By themselves, Shoulderpads of the Stranger are usually better than T5, but the T5 4/5 set bonus is good enough that it is worth using Deathmantle if doing so gives you the set bonus.

Long answer: Conveniently, there is a spreadsheet linked in this very thread to help answer this sort of question.

 

Almehym

Speaking of Shoulderpads of the Stranger, I just got them myself, and I would be replacing T4 (and breaking the 2pc set bonus in doing so). I know what the spreadsheet says (in fact, it only has my dps going down by about 1.5-3 or so), but I want to know what other well geared/skilled rogues would do in my position. I can sub back in the T4 legs that I haven't DE'd yet, I just recently got the badge pants with haste on them. Either way, it feels like I'm downgrading to keep either piece of T4.

If it matters, I'm not using the most current version of the spreadsheet (I think I'm about 1-2 updates behind), but as soon as our raid ends I plan to d/l it and plug everything in to compare.

Edit: Even after rearranging a bunch of buffs to see if it had an effect on the difference, the rough DPS line never drops my total dps more than 1.5 if I break the T4 bonus with those shoulders. I'm leaning heavily towards booting those HKM ones into a couple voids; any reason not to?

 

Furien

You appear to be in your pvp gear on Armory so I can't say for certain but the general guideline is that in most cases the T2 2-piece bonus will provide greater dps than other combinations until you have 4/5 T5. So its likely that equipping the Shoulderpads of the Stranger and going back to your T4 pants will result in a dps increase. Go with what the spreadsheet says though. I don't think the Shallow-grave Trousers are 70 badges better than the T4 you already had, unless you've already got the badge Hands, Boots and Bracers.

 

Grunge

Well I punched in some t5-level gear and while it was worth using t4 helm+t4 pants over t4+shallow-grave the difference was a mere 8 dps.
Switching T4 helm to Vengeful Gladiator's (most easily accessible upgrade at that point of progress) and T4 pants to Shallow-Grave Trousers was a overall 4dps upgrade from t4 2pc.

I would pick up Vengeful helm asap, since I never like to rely on set bonuses.

Edit: I just noticed that you had Vengeful MH meaning that you're probably saving points to get the OH and aren't in a position to get Helm within 2-3 weeks yet. In this case I'd stick with T4 Helm/Legs since they are really solid.

On a interesting note: upgrading from Offset (Vengeful Helm, Strangepad, Trickster's, Shallow-grave) to T5 4pc is only a 24 dps upgrade.
Considering that Rogues will need to compete with Mages for t6 (whom most can bypass taking t4-t5 gear by using crafted) it's probably better to not go for t5 set. DKP wise.
Then again it's a question on how fast you are progressing as well.
I would try to pick-up Bloodsea Brigand's Vest, Belt of Deep-Shadow, Ring of Lethality, Arcanite Steam-Pistol in that order.

Fans glory to the Gladiators,
Gods glory to the Heroes.

 

• Vulajin

Any time you ever have to ask yourself this question, the answer is: we would follow the spreadsheet.

 

Almehym

Thanks for the responses. First, to Vulajin, the reason I asked, even knowing there's a spreadsheet and using it, is because it is such a minor difference, and there are so many non-gear variables. I clicked over to the buff tab, and I just went down the list, but there's only a few things that I ALWAYS have; most of the time it's a 50/50 chance I'll get a warrior in my group, or a feral druid, or a marks hunter, or a ret pally, or some combination. And instead of plugging ALL those variables around for something which only comes to a 1.5dps difference in what I had initially selected, I wanted to see what people had to say on the subject.

Anyway, I have the belt already (my armory is updated to show me in my raid gear now), but I was thinking of trying to save my DKP for the vest. When the shoulders dropped, though, I didn't want to let them rot (no one else wanted them), so I figured I'd take the hit and get the chest some other time. And as for progression, we're doing pretty well recently. Went from Lurker/Tidewalker and VR down to 5/6 and 2/4 (working on Solarian this weekend in between Vashj attempts I think) in two weeks.

I'll have to plug around the s3 helm, even though it'll be a few weeks until I can get it. I just figured I'd have to get the T5 helm to get an upgrade; I didn't think the pvp one would be that strong in PvE.

 

Hassann

Heh, I'm reading this and my guild is in a similar progression to yours, and I'm in almost the same spot as you. Haven't got the shoulders yet (lost the roll) but am hoping to get some significant upgrades over the next couple weeks. About the s3 helm - I assume you have RED in your t4. I have that, but then put the +18 sta / 5% stun resist meta in my s3, so it's actually a significant loss over the t4.

 

◊ Shaker

Well, yes - the S3 hat is only a PVE upgrade if it's set up for PVE - but in the case you use an RED and a Glinting Noble Topaz in it, it's definitely an upgrade over the T4 helm (though not likely to be enough of one to break 2pc T4 on its own.)

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

skorpeo

I had the same problem as the past few rogues who posted about T4 and T5 with off pieces. I got S3 helm and socketed RED along with shallow-grave pants. I use T4 chest and T4 gloves to keep the 2pc bonus. This leaves me open on shoulders since T5 and Strangers can be gotten around the same time. I am saving DKP by not getting the strangers and then getting T5, even though they are a downgrade. Right now im using Dancing Blades until T5 (which is a side grade) but once im at T5 4pc bonus, it will all work out (helm/shoulderpads/gloves/pants) and will jump DPS up considerable.

Just keep playing with the spreadsheet by using not just gear you will get in the near future BUT also with gear further down the line. This will give you options on how to use your DKP more wisely. In the end of SSC/TK, having 4 pc T5 with Bloodsea chest is what we should try and attain.

 

◊ Hanos

Depending on your guild and whether you plan to move into T6 in the future, I would rearrange that. Arcanite Steam-Pistol is best in slot (including all of T6), I would also put the Vashj belt in there since it is also best in slot. The vest is nice, but the one off Supremus is better, and Ring of Lethality won't be replaced until Illidan.

Planning for the 4 piece T5 unless you are stuck in T5 content is something I never personally did because you will maintain it for a very short period, thus you will pick up at least 2 items that are sidegrades, that you can only use while you have all 4, and as soon as you get an upgrade you loose the benefit. If you were to pick an ideal T5 Gear Set including Badge Rewards and Arena Gear.

Helm: S3/Grimguard(ZA)
Neck: Choker of Vile Intent (Badges)
Shoulders: Shoulderpads of the Stranger
Back: Drape of the Dark Reavers (Kara)
Chest: Bloodsea Brigand's Vest (FLK)
Bracers: Master Assassin Wristwraps (Badges)
Gloves: T5 (Leo) or Gloves of Searing Grip
Belt: Belt of One-Hundred Deaths (Vashj)
Legs: Shallow-grave Trousers (but T4, Kara, T5 and Kael ones are all good)
Boots: Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots
Ring: Ring of Lethality/Band of the Ranger-General
Trinket: Dragonspine/Warp-Spring Coil

Weapons: Talon or S3 MH and S2-3 OH

 

Hassann

By "kara" pants, I assume you mean skulker's?

And wouldn't brooch of deftness be better than choker of vile intent?

 

skorpeo

Going by this advice, according to the spreadsheet- right now im at 1328 DPS, with your suggested gear it would be 1395, with same suggested gear but plugging in T5 pieces minus chest (bloodsea) it would be 1415. So basically 20 extra DPS for going from picking up 8 pieces to 10 pieces.

At moment-
Helm- S3
Neck- Worgan Claw
Shoulders- Dancing Blades
Back- Drape of Dark Reavers
chest- T4
Bracers- Master Assassin
Gloves- T4
Belt- Deep Shadow
Legs- Shallow-grave
Boots- Nyn'jah's
Ring- 1000 marks/Garona's
Trinket- Bloodlust/Dragonspine
Weapons- S2/S2

What I was planning-
Helm- T5
Neck- Worgan Claw
Shoulders- T5
Back- Drape of Dark Reavers
Chest- Bloodsea
Bracers- Master Assassin
Gloves- T5
Belt- 1000 deaths
Legs- T5
Boots- Nyn'jah's
Ring- Ring of Lethality/Ranger General
Trinket- Warpcoil/Dragonspine
Weapons- Talon/S2

Which amounts to like 785 DKP (Zero-sum) spent to get it all, where as I would spend 580 DKP to be on par with the suggested pieces (205 DKP for extra 20 DPS gah!) I could also make a case for keeping Dancing Blades over Shoulderpads of the Stranger (10 DPS upgrade) to save 75 DKP by going with the suggested pieces. Thanks a lot for the suggestion Hanos!

 

• Aldriana

Yes.

Nope. And if you had spent 3 minutes looking at the spreadsheet, you wouldn't need to ask, since it's clearly significantly inferior.

 

Hassann

sorry, this computer doesn't have excel, I was just referring to the listing on the pve chart on shadowpanther, which puts the brooch ahead of the choker, by a fair margin. the max dps chart says otherwise, leading to my confusion I guess. If hit is valued so highly for its ability to maximize the number of hits, why doesn't expertise factor in similarly?

 

• Aldriana

Expertise and Hit are both good mods. The fundamental issue is that it that it's itemized too strongly into stamina, and is thus missing other useful, good mods like Agility and Attack Power. It's not that Expertise isn't good - it is. It just costs you too much to get.

Shadowpanther scores it highly for PvE, but their "PvE" weighting includes a very large weighting for stamina - almost twice the "Weighted Total" option in this sheet (which most people seem not to use anyway, under the philosophy that even it it giving too much weight to Stamina). So it - and all other high-sta gear - is dramatically overvalued by the "PvE" column of Shadowpanther, which is why it disagrees. So if you really, really, *really* like stamina you can make a case for Deftness; but most rogues seem to prefer a somewhat more moderate amount of Stamina, and for rogues in that position Choker of Vile Intent is superior by a fair margin.

 

◊ Shaker

It does, it's just that you're comparing 21 expertise rating + 3 hit rating to 20 agility + 42 attack power. Since 1 hit rating ROUGHLY equals 1 expertise rating ROUGHLY equals 1 agility, it should be VERY clear that 42 atk > 1 exp + 3 hit.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

Dorvan

The difference on SP.net is only 5 DAEP, and that's because the Brooch of Deftness has tons of Stam, which is given a fair bit of weight by the metric. You'll notice the on the Max DPS rating the Choker of Vile Intent comes out way ahead. From what I know of rogues (disclaimer: my rogue is a Kara-geared Mutilate rogue) expertise is a solid stat for rogues, but when you weigh 4 hit rating and 21 expertise rating against 20 agility and 42 AP....it should be obvious at a glance that Vile Intent is going to come out on top.

 

Hassann

Yah, makes sense now that I look at it more....have to go farm more badges, I guess.

 

Furien

If you're using the Gear Spreadsheet you don't need Shadowpanther although I still think it's a decent "at a glance" guide to rogue gear. Right at the bottom of the Shadowpanther page is the following Legend:
If you are going to use it to compare gear at a glance for maximising dps you'll need to use the MAEP column. If you wish to go into deeper theorycrafting taking into account talents and synergy's between items then use Aldriana's excellent Rogue Gear Spreadsheet. I used Shadowpanther until I found it.

Edit: I still use Shadowpanther to help me itemise my pvp gear.

 

Darktangent

It's not giving the set bonus for Belt of One-Hundred Deaths when I use 8 agi and 4 agi 6 stam gem.

 

• Aldriana

Yes it is. Read the first post.

 

Darktangent

Ah, sorry about that. One thing that is confusing me is that today when I looked at the spreadsheet it was telling me to put all 8 agi gems in my gear, and the optimal hit is at 295, whereas a couple days ago it was hit gems, and optimal hit was somewhere around 360. All I've been doing is switching in and out upgrades to see the changes in rough dps.

 

◊ Shaker

Also answered in this thread, not even that many pages back. If hit is .01 better than agility, it's going to tell you to gem all +8 hit (for that .08), but if a gear change makes agility .01 than hit, suddenly it'll tell you to drop all your hit gems for +8 agi (or +4/+4s).

This should probably be added to the FAQs, unfortunately. :P

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.

 

Almehym

I'm curious to know, does the movement speed bonus from cat's swiftness get accounted for in the spreadsheet? When changing between that and dexterity, the spreadsheet records a 4 dps loss. Does it only account for sustained dps, or does it include some measure of movement time in its calculations?

 

◊ Shaker

It's a sustained DPS model, so no, it doesn't account for it - this is one of those finer point discussions where you use the spreadsheet as a guide and make decisions based off the information it provides, but don't just trust it blindly - if you are dealing with a lot of movement in the fights you see, you'll give a reasonably higher value to movement speed increases.

Personally, I always use Cat's Swiftness, though I once I get a 2nd set of reasonably equivalent boots I may switch out enchants to have the option.

Consistency. It's only a virtue if you're not a screwup.