I've been following this spreadsheet since I stumbled onto these forums, and I'd like to say both thank you and that I'm extremely impressed with all the work that's gone into this. I'll definitely be recommending it to the fellow rogues in my guild.

I did notice what I thought might be a bug though. The recommended upgrades section for trinkets does not seem to be following the zone selections boses. No matter which are turned on or off, the Black Temple and SSC trinkets still shown as recommended upgrades under Dragonspine Trophy. Again, thanks for all the hard work, and I look forward to seeing what you come up with next.

Good catch on the trinkets. I'll fix that quickly. Swords may have the same issue actually.

There's some sort of bug with gear values.

Here's what's happening.
I have a belt of deep shadow... select it as equipped and the vashj belt is noted a downgrade.
Select the vashj belt and the belt of deep shadow is now noted as a downgrade.

I figure what happens is the stats on the belts synergize in a way that the next stat sheet doesnt capture it. IE: 25 weapon skill on vashj belt is not as valuable as what belt of deep shadow has to offer instead but becomes more valuable as the other stats from vashj belt are considered.


Guess it's not really a bug, but - Intended? Known?
Simple little thing but when the sheet shows something as a downgrade it can make a big deal?

Using the OpenOffice version of the spreadsheet and my current gear setup, I don't have this problem. I weight my gear Offensively and I have the Belt of Deep Shadow at +5.69.

This actually brings me to question this. Even with having weapon skill and it's benefits so up in the air would you rank the Belt of Deep Shadow over the Vashj belt? Obviously at a point where the Belt of Deep Shadow puts you over the hit cap and some of it's +hit goes to waste the Vashj belt is superior, but even with that said, some other items could be switched around.

Do you guys really rank the Belt of Deep Shadow above the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths? When I use Pf's spreadsheet I see the Belt of One Hundred Deaths coming out about 4-5 DPS ahead and that is with the weapon skill post UNchecked.

Here is what I've come up with based on my own numbers. This is using my(DISCLAIMER: The AEP used only applied to my current gear setup) unbuffed AEP listed by pf's spreadsheet. The only AEP ratio I use in this however is .58AP = 1AGI= 1AEP. Stamina is ignored.

Looking at just the Agility and AP on both of the belts:

Agility first:
Vashj: 29agi = 29AEP
Crafted: 32agi = 32AEP

Attack Power:
Vashj: 74AP *.58 = 42.92 AEP + 29AEP(listed above) = 71.92AEP
Crafted: 66AP *.58 = 38.28 AEP + 32AEP(listed above) = 70.28AEP

At this point, for my current gear setup, Vashj is slightly ahead. Obviously this isn't the case for a lot of gear setups and doesn't take in account raid/buff scaling either.

The socket bonuses are the same and I prefer the red and blue versus the 2 blue on the crafted. So again, Vashj is slightly ahead with my current setup.

Now for the +hit versus the +wep skill rating.

+18hit gives roughly +1.141% hit (18/15.77)

So, +1.141% hit on the crafted belt.

-------------------

+25 Weapon skill rating translates in to roughly 6.3414 wep skill.

+6.3414 wep skill with the most recent and basic (still data to be observed for this) understanding of weapon skill gives us something around:
+.63% hit
+.25% crit
-.25% dodge (or is it -.50%?)

-------------------
The +1.70 AEP that the Vashj belt was ahead previously can all be changed with different gear/raid buffs, etc and the socket colors will also change value as new gems come out. Therefore, in my opinion, it comes down to comparing +1.14% hit and +.63% hit, +.25% crit, -.25% dodge(something you can only get from weapon skill and not taken away post hit cap)


What do you guys think? The main thing that makes me want to stick with Vashj is that there are benefits from the +wep skill rating that will not be removed post 308hit (wexp/precision). Honestly, I think I might be a bit biased though, because I'm very hopeful toward weapon skill being worth a flip.

Sorry if my numbers are way off =0

You've hit the nail on the head. All values are done based on your current stats, so changing your gear will change the values. For items tha are very close in value, the behavior you describe is expected. I know this seems strange, but there really isn't a good way around it in spreadsheet form. To go all the way we'd need to either use macros or just plain use a database (discussed around page 3).

So, couple of points here:

1) Due to the nature of procs and the like, I'm fairly certain that 1% hit is actually superior to 1% crit right now, and comperable to -dodge (slightly less since -dodge also effects yellow attacks, but that's a reasonably minor effect since a dodged yellow attack only costs you about 20% of the damage of the attack). So you're comparing 1.14% hit to 1.13% of other mods - looks pretty even, to me. Which, conveniently, is what the spreadsheet seems to be showing for most people - they're within a couple of AP.

2) Any rogue that's looking to make this decision is in a position where they're starting to pick up Tier 5, which has very little +hit on it. The rogues in my guild that have started to pick up T5 have found their hit drops considerably - one rogue in my guild was at 309 hit last week, and having picked up T5 shoulders + legs is down to 273, even after reshuffling some other gear to get more hit. So I'm of the opinion that the hit cap is somewhat less of a concern for such rogues.

3) On the other hand, we *don't* understand weapon skill very well, so it's entirely possible that the value of Vashj belt is higher than we are estimating.

In the end, I would say: they're pretty comperable. There's probably a slight argument to be made in favor of the Vashj belt, but it's very very close - once I got one, I wouldn't bother with getting the other until no one else needed it.

Stranger shoulders are better for dagger rogues, sure. They *also* have no hit.

I mean, I'm not saying that you can't still reach the hit cap in T5 - just that it's not quite so immediate a concern as it is for some less-geared rogues. I mean, I could hit 350 hit without even resocketing anything with current gear, and could probably break 400 if I really wanted to - in fact, if I get the next couple of upgrades in the wrong order, I'm going to wind up in a situation where I'll be hard-pressed *not* to have 320+ hit rating. At Karazhan/T4 levels of gear you have to work *not* to be hit-capped. When you get up to T5 level itemization, this is less true, I think. BBV has lots of hit, to be sure, but not a whole lot of other things do. Given which, I think it's fair to say that the fact that Belt of Deep Shadow has hit rather than other mods is not a particularly large disadvantage.

Well, no matter what you say, weapon skill is being severely underestimated in this sheet... Because of the fact that you have incorporated no hit cap.

The fact that weapon skill allows you to get more hit on your gear is something that's not counted, and kind of a big deal.

(If hit is worth .3 more ap than agi on your sheet then every point of hit the weapon skill allows you to get over the cap adds .3 more APEP to your weapon skill item.) This is a big deal and somewhat of a venue to get a better estimate of the value of weapon skill.

Weapon skill doesn't allow you to break the hit cap - the hit cap represents 0 miss chance. It does reduce the chance of your attacks being dodged, but that's fully modeled in the sheet. So unless the benefits of weapon skill are significantly different than stated, the sheet should be fairly accurate.

When I said that, I was thinking that the Dodge removed from the roll table by weapon skill is made up miss, where you are saying it's made up by hit. I'm not really sure right now which it does. I bet you hadn't thought this was possible either, needs to be looked into, maybe.

Well, either way it's modeled. Either
a) +skill converts dodges to misses, or
b) +skill converts dodges to hits.

In the first case, the weapon skill itself provides no benefit other than raising the hit cap, because dodges and misses both do no damage. Hence no damage is directly added, but an equal amount of value is gained by raising the hit cap.

Meanwhile, in the 2nd case, the weapon skill provides no benefit to the hit cap, but adds damage directly

Either way, it's modeled. Personally, I'd be willing to bet that it converts dodges to hits, because that fits better with the understood mechanics.

While on the subject of gear additions. Can you please add the exalted Thrallmar bow, Marksman's Bow or whatever? Thanks ;x

Well, the reason Stealther's Helmet of Second Sight isn't in is because it's harder to get than Helm of the Claw, and significantly inferior thanks to the new metagems.

The rest... I'll think about it. What I'm trying to avoid is having huge lists of items for every slot, most of which will never be used by any halfway serious raider. I mean, if you're not doing at least Karazhan and Heroics, this sheet isn't gonna be accurate for anything you're doing anyway, so I figured starting at 5-man gear was reasonable - nor do I feel a particular obligation to include every possible 5-man option so long as a couple of the better ones get hit.

Anyway, I'll review the list of included items in the next release and try to add a few more low end options. But I do want to avoid having more than 2 or 3 5-man blues per slot.

On the point of gems, i would love if you added them in a different format. I have a hard time remembering what all the gems do. I'd prefer seeing "Glinting Noble Topaz (4 agi 4 hit)" anytime to "Delicate Living Ruby" .. was that ap or agi again?
Hope you get the point.

Fair enough about Stealther's Helmet and I understand why you'd want to keep the blue items at a minimum. Thing with the Assassination set though is it's probably the most common blue items people have for the slots when starting to raid. My guild is currently in SSC and all our rogues still have at least one piece of Assa set or the Stealther's helm (new metagems are nice but on the other hand they seem a waste to put on something you're planning to replace as a priority). Due to being quite rogue heavy and unlucky with drops, I guess.

I'd also second the low end gear plea. Even doing Kara there are not a lot of options for some of the armor, back, ranged weapons and trinket slots.

I'll also admit that once I looked at it, it isn't too hard to add my own gear (it would be easier if the columns that I needed to update were all grouped together or had their cells colored) but it's painful to do it for each sheet version (also a pace that's slowed down)

Any plan to add fist weapons soon?

Ty sir =)

We have been discussing adding fist weapons, maces, and even mutilate. The biggest issue here is that it makes the cell formulas extremely unwieldly. Honestly, if there is sufficient need to go that route we should really switch over something that lets us actually code things.

Please be very careful when adding your own gear (not replacing previous gear, just adding) to check that the gemming modules at the end of the armor and weapon pages are still using the correct ranges.

I actually went through and put dollarsigns in those in 0.6 so it should be less of an issue than it was.

There is still an issue when reordering cells within the ranges, so be careful about that; but if you insert into the middle of the block and update name, stats, and drop location, it *should* work.

guess sword-spec got nerfed.
directly from 2.1.2 ptr patch notes.

So, correct me if I am wrong, but from what I think I understand from earlier posts in this thread, the "Optimal Hit" doesn't mean how much hit is the hit cap for me, but more of a value to aim for(with my current gear)?

Would re-gemming my gear according to the "Optimal Hit" would actually give me the best dps in theory?

"Optimal Hit" != "0% miss for boss mobs"?


EDIT: Well yeah because I put my gear into the spreadsheet and it tells me my optimal hit is 227, but I already have 256(and I was still aiming to get more >.>), so I'm confused right now to whether re-gem to lower hit or...?