Hmm havent seen the za cloak drop so never compared it but i guess it would be really good. And i did drop hit food already. Regemming is pretty much the only thing i was trying to avoid as i dont feel like taking the few pyrestones we have in the bank over lets say locks. Twisted blades would be really nice too, need to see it drop though.

TY for the help guys.

My suggestion would be that you can answer all of these questions using the spreadsheet already.

Not sure if you knew this...but I show the spreadsheet NOT giving me a socket bonus credit for Belt of Deep Shadow with 2 Shifting Nightseyes.

Yes it is. Read first post.

My fault

Hello, im a first time poster, reader since some time ago.

I finally took the time to use the spreadsheet and im having some gemming thoughts. It seems it wants me to stock up alot on +8 hit gems, instead of the 4 hit 4 agi im using now. Also I had to put in a fake helm since I got the second sight one still (extremely bad luck with the drops, exalted with kara, NO rogue token for either gloves or helm ).

I'm currently at 275 hitrating, and guild is at Vashj atm progresswise. I could use some pointers on how to increase the DPS, cause I've been playing rogue for a longtime and I think I've become a bit "homeblind" so to say. Currently I always aim for getting 3pt SnD up, go for 5pt SnD and then 5p Rupture. From what I've read this is a tad old cycle and I would love to start with a new one.

Also I just went from fist to sword specc, hence my fist offhand.
But what I'm wondering is, should I put in more +8 hitrating or keep the 4hit4agi ones?

armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory

I've been looking around and unable to find any information on the trinkets in sunwell now proven to be real, I find that suprising. Has any attempt been made to estimate their ap value given average trinket PPM and CD's? The passive stats on each trinket both seemed to add up to around 120ap for me, but the spreadsheet confuses me too much to try and estimate the procs.

I've been reading and using the spreadsheets here for quite some time and would like to say thanks for all of the great help. I'm currently working on my second rogue amd he is at a relatively low gear level. I have 240 hit rating, 1460 AP, and 23% crit unbuffed. I'm currently specced 20/41/0 for raid dps although I have yet to step foot into Kara on this rogue and I have a question about gemming.

Despite the common consesus that I should gem for hit rating since I am nowhere near the hit cap when I use the spreadsheet to fool around with my gems and such I always end up with a higher dps when I use gems that give agi over hit (ie 4hit/4agi over 8 hit, or 8 agi over 8 hit where socket bonus is irrelevant to dps) and I can't seem to figure out why. Granted they are minor dps changes, but nonetheless if I want to maximize my dps I want to understand why the agi gems are coming out on top. For raid buffs I was conservative and used Kings, Might, Spicy Hot Talbuk(which coincedentally comes out lower than 20 agi food), GotW, and Sunderx5. InstantMH/DeadlyOH. Am I missing something or is it just that agi is better at low gear levels?

Also I am using Rogue_Gear_0_9_2_00 for my calculations, as I am almost certain it is the most accurate and current. Any insight would be greatly appreciated.

Hitting often doesn't mean too much if your hits hardly do any damage. Your AP seems very low relative to your hit, so what the spreadsheet is telling you is that you need to work on making your attacks hit harder before it really matters just how often they hit. That's that intuition anyway.

Kinda. Hit scales up faster with the more buffs you have. Particularly something like Windfury. In an unbuffed situation agil usually is better than hit. In a fully 25 man raid buff situation, usually hit becomes better than agil (til cap). Also make sure you're looking at offensive instead of weighted if you want to see the max dps thing.

P.S. I like your name! ;p

Well, personally, I'm still a bit skeptical about the items listed for Sunwell, if for no other reason than because they're *ridiculously* expertise heavy. Shard of Contempt, for instance, puts any combat rogue at the Expertise cap by itself, meaning that if you have any other Expertise gear at all (notably the Vashj belt or the Sunwell OH Sword) you're now well over the expertise cap. It'd be sort of like the situation way back when in MC days when there was lots of itemization for hit but we couldn't reduce miss rate under 19%. Expertise is a great stat, but if they actually release this much Expertise gear we'll all be desperately finding ways to dump it because it'll be useless after the first item that has it.

Regardless: the additional problem is that without knowing proc rates, it's really hard to estimate these things with any accuracy. The difference between 1 PPM (50% uptime) and 1 PPM with a 60 sec internal cooldown (20% uptime) is considerable. That said, lets take a crack at analyzing the purported Sunwell Loots:

Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade - #3 Rogue OH. Warglaive is (obviously) better, as is Blade of Savagery (though not by much), but it does beat the Arena 3 OH. Additionally has the above-noted problem with Expertise. Conclusion? You'd rather have a Warglaive or a Blade of Savagery. But if you haven't managed to get one yet, this is a perfectly reasonable alternative while you're waiting.

Muramasa - This is about 1/3 of the way from Blade of Infamy to Warglaive, and thus beats Arena 3 MH handily. That is, it's clearly the 2nd best OH available, so anyone without a Warglaive should get one. That said: I'm actually a bit disappointed in this. Given that we haven't really had a nontrivial MH upgrade since SSC (as Infamy is basically a sidegrade to Talon), I was hoping for a bit more here. This is more on the order of what I think BoI should have been, so in an ideal world I'd like to see this get a bit of a buff to be more like halfway between BoI and Warglaive - for instance, by keeping the DPS the same but making it 2.7 speed.

Crux of the Apocalypse - 114 DPS dagger with nice mods. So, this is *almost* enough to make combat daggers competitive, by which I mean: with Crux of the Apocalypse and the best OH dagger, one does about as much damage as with Muramasa/Blade of Savagery (a bit less against Murderable targets, a bit more against nonMurderable targets). Meaning that, if this is actually the full list of new weapons, Combat Daggers with Crux is now competitive with anything else you can do that doesn't involve Legendaries. Which is nice. Of course, you still have the other disadvantages of being a dagger rogue, so personally I'm still thinking I'll stay with swords.

Shiv of Exanguination - About halfway between Crux and Shard of Azzinoth. It initially surprised me that it was so much better than Shard, and then I realized that the raw speed/damage of the weapon is only slightly less, and it has the advantage of having lots of nice stats on it. That said: with Crux and the best OH dagger, you do only slightly more overall damage than Talon of Azshara/Arena 2 OH, so unless you're *really* devoted to the notion of using daggers, I'd leave this one to the hunters.

Fang of Kalecgos - This would be the aforementioned "Best OH Dagger". It doesn't beat Arena 3 and Messenger of Fate by tons, but it does beat them. So if you're planning to get Crux and go daggers, you should pick this up.

So, the end conclusion on weapons is: Warglaives are still the best game in town (duh), but if you don't have them, Muramasa/Savagery or Crux/Fang are the best available options, and are reasonably comparable on the whole.

And now, for the trinkets. Before we get started, for comparison purposes, the top trinkets available at the moment, scored according to my gear/spec:

DST: 219
AToL: 185
WSC: 181
MotB: 175
TT: 155

Now, the new trinkets:

Steely Naaru Sliver - Even assuming for the moment that this didn't put any combat rogue over the Expertise cap (and it does), it'd still only score a 151. Leave this one to the tanks, who gain the equivalent of 6.5% hit from it, and a nice tanking proc to boot.

Shard of Contempt - As mentioned, this puts you near the Expertise cap by itself, so if you're currently wearing other Expertise gear you need to keep that in mind when deciding whether or not to use this. And if you're a human using sword in maces, you're over just with this, that, and the talent. But, regardless: lets assume for the moment that you can make full use out of it. Then, if the proc rate is 1 PPM (which seems excedingly unlikely to me), it'd score 265 overall, and be awesome. If it, instead, had a 60 sec internal cooldown (which is towards the high end but still plausible), it'd be more like 178, which puts it right amongst the current top trinkets (though in practice there's not much reason to use it anyway, due to the Expertise issues). So, fundamentally, this could be the best trinket in the game or pretty mediocre, or anywhere in between. Hard to say much more than that without knowing the proc rate.

Blackened Naaru Sliver - I'm not even going to bother computing the value of this assuming no internal cooldown, as it'd be ridiculously broken (like, old DST level broken) without one. Looking at it, it almost certainly has an internal cooldown of at least 30 seconds and as much as a minute. So lets use those as endpoints to estimate it's value. When it goes off, it stacks up to full in an average of 5.66 seconds. Thus, if it has a 30 second cooldown, it scores... 273. If it has a 60 second cooldown, it still scores 215. So assuming that the proc rate is anything reasonable on this, it + DST are likely the best two trinkets in the game, with order depending on the exact proc rate. AKA, "You want to get one of these".

Once people start getting and we get some proc rate numbers, I'll worry about putting these in the sheet. Until then, I'm not too worried about it.

Your reading the item wrong, when it procs it allows your hits to gain a buff, so youll have 2 buffs, 1 allowing you to gain AP buffs that stack.. and the ap buffs themselves.

Oh sorry, I get it now. Chance on hit to activate a Crusade Card type buff and that's what lasts 20 sec.

New t6 pieces, set is now increased to 8 pieces, as well as badge loot. Wondering if this could be modeled
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...ayer_armor.jpg

Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm
Hands Leather
+41 agility
+33 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +3 agility
Equip: Improved Haste rating by 30.
Equip: Increased attack power 82.
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...008_013409.jpg

Leggings of the Immortal Night
Legs Leather
+41 Agility
+48 Stamina
Red
Red
Red
Socket Bonus +4 Agi
Equip: Improved hit rating by 32
Equip: Increases attack power by 124.
Equip: Your attacks ignore 224 of your opponent's armor
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...008_013447.jpg

Duplicitous Guise
Head Leather
+43 Agility
+57 Stamina
Meta
Red
Socket Bonus +4 Hit
Equip: Improved Hit rating by 30
Equip: Improves haste rating by 34
Equip: Increases attack power by 126
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...008_013457.jpg

Shoulderpads of Vehemence
Shoulder
+33 Agility
+45 Stamina
Equip:Improved Hit rating by 26.
Equip:Improved Haste Rating by 30.
Equip:Increases Attack power by 90.
http://www.worldofraids.com/2008/ptr...008_013409.jpg

Better go check out the link at MMO, WoR is showing two bracers instead of the belt. I would really like an early assessment of these items. Belt and boots looks good, not to sure about bracers though.. Haste and no hit after haste nerf and hit cap raise?

At first glance on t6.5 stuff from vendors it seemed that best slots to retain t6 4pc would be chest or shoulders, belt, bracers, boots which is kinda smeh. I couldn't come to a decision between the new helm and cursed vision, it all came down to how good haste would be coupled with other items. Once we get a spreadsheet hack out it'd be possible to play around considerably.

As for the expertise trinkets. Since Vashj gave us lots of awesome -threat trinkets I never got the belt. However if you consider the boots give a hefty amount already it's a bit smeh that they decided to stack so much of a single item (thus eating more of the itembudget as well...More balanced items please!).
Ideally I'd like to see a overhaul of entire t6 to reflect the boots/belt/bracers and their individual stats (ie balance expertise over several items and so on.)

Thanks for the detailed response to my question and analysis on the new loots ald.

Another quick update, for the LW items:

Carapace of Sun and Shadow - About 30 AP better than Bladed Chaos Tunic, so about 100 AP better than Slayer's.
Gloves of the Immortal Dusk - About 25 AP better than Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm, so about 45 AP better than Slayer's.

Note that gloves are still the slot with the smallest available upgrade, so you still probably end up using Slayer's... although the shoulders are pretty close, meaning that Gloves of the Immortal Dusk with Slayer's Shoulderpads is not an unreasonable option either - particularly since that setup is weighted a bit more towards crit/ArPen and less towards hit/haste, which makes it better in interrupted fights.

I'd say there's two potential answers to this probem:

1. Spec out of weapon expertise. Though there's not much else DPS-wise to pick up, it's an option.
2. Blizzard is gearing for WotLK. Expertise should be an excellent stat for leveling, as you'll be facing mobs frequently resulting in much fewer dodges/parry/blocks. And you'll be back under the cap again in no time, I'm sure. If I'm not mistaken, the Tier 3 gave excellent bonuses for leveling as well.

In any case, we'll know soon enough.

Khorium choker and band appear to be Jewelcrafting. Choker is BoP, ring is BoE.
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...elringneck.jpg

Currently:
"Hard Khorium Choker - About a 25 AP offensive upgrade over Endless Nightmares, with another 20 points from Stamina. Nice upgrade, seems to be best in slot. Whether it's worth dropping Leatherworking (Drums) or Enchanting (Rings) to get is somewhat debatable.
Hard Khorium Band - Sidegrade to Stormrage Signet Ring from an offensive perspective, but has more stamina. Best in slot."
vs.
"Carapace of Sun and Shadow - About 30 AP better than Bladed Chaos Tunic, so about 100 AP better than Slayer's.
Gloves of the Immortal Dusk - About 25 AP better than Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm, so about 45 AP better than Slayer's."

Since Ring and Gloves are both (at this stage) BoE, but require 5 and 6 sunmotes respectively to make I'd say it really seems to favor Leatherworking. Especially since (speculating here) there might be a better neck from Sunwell, while the LW chest would be best. Not to mention drums.
Also, in most zero-sum dkp systems chest/gloves are somewhat more expensive than Neck/Gloves so that's another aspect to consider.

If I had only known earlier... Started leveling JC about four days ago for PvP since LW offered nothing for it.

P.S. Ring Enchants are 13.37 ap value points (per one) for me so dropping enchanting as well for Jewelcrafting would be weighted upgrade.

http://www.pinchet.com/~wow/ptr/WoWS...008_090332.jpg - normal Kael drop from the 5 man.

Sunrage Shoulders
+28 Agility
+16 Stamina
Red Socket
Blue Socket
Socket Bonus: +6 Attack Power
Equip: Increases Attack Power by 58
Equip: Your attacks ignore 126 of your opponent's armor.

Probably not that exciting for most of you, but it works out better than Chess/ZA/T5 for my rogue alt. From a normal 5-man :o And I don't have any other armor penetration.