Sunrage Shoulderpads - Comparable to T5. A bit less stamina, but slightly higher DPS. Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer - More or less the same answer. Distracting Blades - Ranks between Twisted Blades and Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix. Aka the best thing you can get without doing a 25-man, and not even a bad option after that. Although with Barrel-Blade Longrifle becoming BoE, I suppose one no longer has to kill the 25-man boss yourself, and it's just slighly better. Edge of Oppression - Comparable with Arena 2 OH Dagger, thus the best OH dagger obtainable via PvE outside BT/Sunwell. Unfortunately, it's still a dagger.
An interesting problem has just occurred to me. If one wears the optimal gearset I mentioned above (T6 Bracers, Gloves, Belt, and Boots, Duplicitous Guise, Shoulderpads of Vehemence, Carapace of Sun and Shadow, Leggings of the Immortal Night with Hard Khorium Choker, Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape, Hard Khorium Band, Stormrage Signet Ring, Ashtongue Talisman, DST, Warglaives, and Arcanite Steam-Pistol), a couple of notable issues arise.
1) You only have one blue socket. Meaning that you have to stick a Purple gem into one of your red sockets somewhere. Not really a major concern, but something to be aware of.
2) If you socket everything else with Glintings, you wind up with 358 hit rating - aka "very very close to the hit cap". Which in particular means that when socketing endgame gear one can no longer really use Rigid Lionseyes (not a major issue in that one only has 2 yellow slots anyway), and getting some Delicates might not be a bad idea (for instance, using 3 Delicates to get base hit down to 343, giving you the flexibility to use agi food on more movement-based fights and still be hit-capped thanks to hit food on the sustained fights). Delicates, are, of course, in high demand in most guilds, so this may not be practical; but the point is that the hit cap becomes a serious concern for end-Sunwell gear. Even more so if you regularly run with a Balance Druid, a Draenei Warrior, or the like.
3) However, one can mitigate this by using Slayer's Shoulderpads and Gloves of the Immortal Dusk instead. This (socketed fully with Glintings) drops your overall hits to 324, giving some cushion away from the hit cap.
Blade of Life's Inevitability - seems to be best thrown:
[19 sta, 16 haste, yellow socket +4 AP bonus, 36 AP] => assuming 10 hit gem it becomes [19 sta 16 haste, 10 hit, 40 AP]
If I hacked spreadsheet correctly it should be 8AP ahead of steam pistol offensive stats or 14 Weighted
After 10 or so minutes of whacking mobs in Blasted Lands, the lowest internal cooldown I came up with was 48 seconds, which leads me to believe it's probably set at around 45 seconds.
I don't have the means to track the proc rate yet, but if someone would want the information(and let me know what the best way to do so would be), I could log it.
I'm currently raiding as combat maces. Using season 3 mainhand & offhand. I recently picked up [Swiftsteel Bludgeon], Spreadsheet doesn't show this as an upgrade. But I manually change s3 offhand to this it shows a minor dps increase..?
I'm currently raiding as combat maces. Using season 3 mainhand & offhand. I recently picked up [Swiftsteel Bludgeon], Spreadsheet doesn't show this as an upgrade. But I manually change s3 offhand to this it shows a minor dps increase..?
Sometimes the item doesnt show as an upgrade, until you put it in. Using what you currently had (S3 mace) the swiftsteel wasnt better. But since, by using swiftsteel, you lost s3's stats and thus it was better. Try unequipping the mace period, adding s3 AND swiftsteel stats to two diff weps, adn see which one comes up as better. If you're still getting s3 > swiftsteel, then you might want to get a higher-up answer..lol I don't know too much past this.
The real answer to when things like this happen is that they're so close that the difference is negligible - when swapping any non-mechanic changing item causes things to swap around, you're just looking at a very small difference. Swapping out things like DST or WSC will cause larger changes, but if you swap your neck around and it says "oh wait now this is better!" it's likely by only a few EAP or so.
After 10 or so minutes of whacking mobs in Blasted Lands, the lowest internal cooldown I came up with was 48 seconds, which leads me to believe it's probably set at around 45 seconds.
I don't have the means to track the proc rate yet, but if someone would want the information(and let me know what the best way to do so would be), I could log it.
Simplest way it probably just to take a /combatlog and post it on the forums, and someone here (such as myself) will analyze it for you. Make sure to remove any haste procs you might have, and autoattack with a single weapon only. Then post the combat log and tell us 1) the speed of the weapon you were using and 2) how much haste rating you had on.
In general, it's nice to aim for at least half an hour of data collection; if you don't have a healer assisting you, the easiest way to do this is probably the ogres behind the king in DM North.
I'm currently raiding as combat maces. Using season 3 mainhand & offhand. I recently picked up [Swiftsteel Bludgeon], Spreadsheet doesn't show this as an upgrade. But I manually change s3 offhand to this it shows a minor dps increase..?
Shaker is right. In this case, with the season 3 weapons, the culprit is likely armor penetration as this stat will become increasingly more valuable the more of it you have. Thus, if you have other sources of armor pen [Armory is currently not loading for your character], the season 3 weapons will slightly increase in value. By removing a source of ArP (the offhand), you decrease the overall value of ArP that would have been applied to the s3 offhand, and the result is that the new gear set shows a net increase in dps.
I know this is a bit off topic from the current discussion, however its something I've been curious about for the past couple weeks and I cant seem to input the information myself so I was wondering if someone more seasoned in excel can input the info and regurgitate the results. I've been wondering the difference between the dps of 3s\5r, 4s\5r, and 5s\5r rotations with complete end game gear. I know there are a lot of variables, but from my testing on teron my dps is almost always higher with 4s\5r and 5s\5r cycles over 3s\5r, yet spreadsheets always tell me the optimal cycle is 3s\5r. Just looking for some raw data of the theoretical dps of each cycle.
In complete endgame gear, the theoretical difference between 3s5r, 4s5r, and 5s5r is all but nonexistent. At end-T6 gear levels, the extra rupture damage gained from cycle compression is matched by the the loss of SS damage due to Relentless Strikes not always proccing, so one finds that the minimal sustainable Xs5r cycle will be within 1-2 DPS of 5s5r.
Now, at *slightly* lower gear levels - like, mostly T6 but not Warglaives - 3s5r will hold a slight advantage (5 DPS, say) from a theoretical perspective. The trick is that this assumes perfectly sustained 3s5r cycles. In practice, it can happen that a drought of Ruthlessness/Relentless Strikes/Combat Potency procs can induce brief periods of SnD downtime, a fact which is not modeled in the sheet. That is, the sheet is computing theoretically "tight" cycles, which are probably not sustainable in practice. Hence, if the sheet is saying that the optimal cycle is 3s5r, then 3s5r is an absolutely tight, minimal cycle which thus is probably not something you want to try.
A good rule of thumb is that for safety you should add about half a point to the size of the recommended SnD to give you some cushion against bad luck - and since a 3.5s5r cycle doesn't really make sense, this generally puts you all the way at 4s5r.
So, stated briefly: assuming perfectly sustained cycles, 3s5r, 4s5r, and 5s5r will all do very comparable damage at T6 levels of itemization. The reason why you observe less damage in practice with 3s5r is either a) caused by the fact that SnD is dropping occasionally, or b) observer bias.
Thanks for the reply, thats basically the conclusion I was coming to through practice. Seems that if you average out most fights 4s\5r ends up averaging out the highest due to bad luck factoring into some fights with 3s\5r cycle
Now for the fun part - with sooo much haste/hit itemization in Sunwell, and the corresponding influx of more energy into those cycles, are we going to see any interesting changes in cycles? That is, will 3s or 4s/5r come back into play? Or will the extra energy just be used to make a 'shorter' 5s/5r? My instincts tell me that since SS is a better use of energy, that it will continue to do so, but ...
Now for the fun part - with sooo much haste/hit itemization in Sunwell, and the corresponding influx of more energy into those cycles, are we going to see any interesting changes in cycles? That is, will 3s or 4s/5r come back into play? Or will the extra energy just be used to make a 'shorter' 5s/5r? My instincts tell me that since SS is a better use of energy, that it will continue to do so, but ...
I would suspect that with most rogues already at/near the cap with high-end T6 gear (275+), the extra hit and haste will not have nearly as much of an impact as the sheer amount of extra AP, Crit, and Armor Penetration a rogue will receive by getting the best and brightest loots Sunwell has to offer. I would assume naturally that this would further make 5s/5r the best cycle as Sinister Strike continues to scale up more and more with crit and ArP, while Rupture scales only with AP (and worse than SS does with that).
With hit food and a moonkin with imp ff, the hit cap is lowered from 363 to 298. With what Aldriana said above about having too much hit even with glinting pyrestones socketed, rogues who raid with moonkin might have the option to socket delicate spinels everywhere, with 2 glintings and 2 shifting tanzanite (the str/agi blue gem from heroic steamvaults, which will no longer be unique-equipped in 2.4) to activate the RED.
I'm looking forward to the release of the updated spreadsheet so I can figure out how much leeway we get to gem best in slot gear.
Adding the gear is, for the most part, fundamentally easy. There are currently 4 major things needed for the next release:
1) Proc rates on new trinkets. I could release without this if I had to, but since it's gonna take some time to fix the next three points anyway, I might as well wait for some info on proc rates as well.
2) New zone filter. These are sort of a pain to add, so this will take some time. We're not talking days, but every time I need to add a new one it takes me an hour to remember how to do it.
3) Expertise cap. There's now enough Expertise itemization that the Expertise cap is a serious issue; hence, an indicator similar to the Hit cap indicator is going to be needed. (Random thought: the natural place to put this is where "Optimal Hit" is now. Would anyone miss it horribly if I nuked the "Optimal Hit" field to replace it with your position relative to the Expertise Cap?
4) Socketed weapons. When it was Karazhan gear in T5 days and ZA gear in T6 days, I could ignore the issue of socketing weapons; but I just can't justify not being able to put the best dagger in the game in the sheet. So at long last, I'm going to have to take the time to get weapon socketing up and running.
There's also some other minor fixes I'll probably put in (like the newest DP-uptime formula), but those will be pretty fast; 1-4 above (and most particularly 4) are what's going to govern when the next release is ready. My best guess would be "a couple of weeks", though if people want a prerelease version with just the new gear but not the features above (no warning of Expertise cap, Sunwell loot filed under BT, no Crux of the Apocalypse, etc.) I can work something out in that regard.
2) New zone filter. These are sort of a pain to add, so this will take some time. We're not talking days, but every time I need to add a new one it takes me an hour to remember how to do it.
3) Expertise cap. There's now enough Expertise itemization that the Expertise cap is a serious issue; hence, an indicator similar to the Hit cap indicator is going to be needed. (Random thought: the natural place to put this is where "Optimal Hit" is now. Would anyone miss it horribly if I nuked the "Optimal Hit" field to replace it with your position relative to the Expertise Cap?
2) At the current stage of the game, I don't think a differentiation between 5 Man, Heroics or even Karazhan is necessary anymore. So maybe, you could simply put two of those zones together and use the freed up slot for Sunwell loot.
It's certainly not the most elegant solution, but it's easy and it won't even bloat up the sheet (If it can be done like this at all)
3) Nuke it, good sir. The Optimal Hit field has caused too many stupid questions over the months anyway. Good riddance!.
Oh, and is the expertise cap observed in the calculations in the current version?
Also, I'd like to thank you once more for the work you're doing here. The spreadsheet with its one-of-a-kind accuracy has become an essential tool for me that I wouldn't want to miss. So... thanks!
Hi just looking for some insight in regards to boosting my dps have been looking a the spreadsheet etc and just want some other peoples opinions. Currently my Raid is just starting in SSC Hydross/Lurker/Leo down and we have VR and Solarion in TK down
I just recently swapp from Combat Daggers to Combat swords.
The main thing im looking a tis when i swapped to Sword my hit went dow to 209 from 240 or so when i was using the Malchazeen/S2 OH combo to the sword i use Spiteblade/ZA OH(cant think of name right now)
Currently i have 1888 AP unbuffed in my raid gear crit is almost 25%
Should have T5 gloves soon as i have been on top DKP wise since out first kill but ont he 2 times the Champ has drops for reasons out of my control(Person changing mains to pally and having to take druid cause healer dropped out) i have missed out
Any suggestion Gear/Gem/Chant/Spec would be greatly appreciated
Playing around with the spreadsheet and/or reading this thread should give you an idea. If that fails read the roguecraft 101 thread for some more pointers on playing a rogue.
I have the spreadsheet and am in the process of doing this was just curious of other people opinions.
I am not expecting people to do the "homework" for me i just value the opinions of other as they can sometimes see thing you cannot yourself
My dps is by no means crappy i got a big increase from using the info in here to get my cycles right and am always towards the top end in our raids if not on top just always looking to improve
I believe popular opinion would be to gear how the spreadsheet says if you want the best dps in a sustained situation. If you want to know more advanced theory on how to play a rogue you should read the first post in the Roguecraft 101 thread and then ask questions in that thread if there is anything that isn't clear.
2) At the current stage of the game, I don't think a differentiation between 5 Man, Heroics or even Karazhan is necessary anymore. So maybe, you could simply put two of those zones together and use the freed up slot for Sunwell loot.
It's certainly not the most elegant solution, but it's easy and it won't even bloat up the sheet (If it can be done like this at all)
Not a bad idea... it's a fair point that some of the catagories are a little more granular than they need to be at this point. I mean, technically one could lump Kazzak and DW into BoE at this stage. But I think the catagory that can most stand to be eliminated at this stage is Pre-BC raiding. There's a grand total of 3 items in that catagory (Bonescythe Bracers, DFT, and Kiss of the Spider), all of which are the worst item(s) for their slot in the sheet. I think at this point - a good solid year since the expansion came out - I don't have a lot of sympathy for people who haven't managed to find one of the blues that beats their Naxx epics. So I think I might nuke that catagory to make room for Sunwell.
In terms of other rearrangements... I'm thinking I might bump SSC/TK level crafted items (i.e., stuff that requires Nether Vortices) down into "Crafted" and keep "Endgame Crafted" for stuff that requires Heart of Darkness or Sunmotes, and/or has a pattern that drops in Hyjal, BT, or Sunwell.
Additionally, I'm thinking I might lump heroic *drops* in with 5 mans and replace the existing Heroics category with Badge rewards (as Badge rewards no longer equate with needing to do heroics).
It also seems to me that the gear lists should probably be arranged, as a lot of them now seem a bit out of order (for instance, WSC being way far down the trinkets list despite being one of the better options, due to the fact that it was crap when it was added to the sheet), so I might take a crack at that.
Comments? Other ideas? Let me know what you think.
For those of you that were wondering whether you should level Jewelcrafting for Hard Khorium Choker: I'm going to go with "no", due to the existance of the recently-discovered [Clutch of Demise], which is, admittedly slightly inferior (I put it about 15 points behind in both offense and weighted total, putting it 10 points offense and 30 points total ahead of Endless Nightmare), but it closes the gap enough that I think it's now clear that LW/Enchanting is optimal.
In other news: assuming the above-mentioned estimate of 45 second cooldown on Shard of Contempt it correct, that would put it at 199 EP on the chart listed in post 2037. So it's a slight upgrade over everything existing except DST for raiding, but (probably) inferior to Blackened Naaru Sliver. So it might be worth picking up for farming/leveling to 80 with, but I don't think it's particularly interesting for raiding.
02/10/08, 11:08 PM
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