• Aldriana

Optimal Hit reflects the amount of hit rating if you socketed and enchanted your current gear optimally. For exactly what is considered to be optimal for you, consult the middle gear column. So, yes, given the buffs you have selected and the gear you have equipped, the spreadsheet feels you would do more damage by gemming for less hit.

Optimal Hit *doesn't* have anything to do with the hit cap - is just an indication of how much hit you'd have if you socketed according to the recommendations in the middle column. This is primarily intended as a warning mechanism, as, in general, "optimal" involves socketing stuff with a whole lot of +8 hit gems, which will frequently put you over the hit cap - the Optimal Hit number is designed to warn you about this so you know not to socket so overwhelmingly with hit.

 

Karmon

A couple of errors in the gear spreadsheet 0.6 (found in the OpenOffice version but likely present in the Excel version)

Sheet 'Talents_Equipment':
"Optimal Hit" ist computed incorretcly. The current gems are backed out of "Current Hit" regardless of availability in gear
(COUNTIF() matches the gems even if they are hidden with conditional formatting).
The socketbonus that results from socketing the optimal gems reflects all the +hit sockets in the armory sheet
(I think it should be SUMPRODUCT($Armor.Y2:Y150;$Armor.AV2:AV150;$Armor.AJ2:AJ150))

The Metagem row lacks the formulas in the hidden fields F10 and I10. As a result Metagems do not contribute in the Sword/Dagger calcs.

Gem in row 12 still has conditional validity range.

Sheet 'Gem':
The value of Relentless Earthstorm Diamond ist computed incorrect for daggers.
For daggers it should reference row 257 for critdmg and haste proc

Sheets Sword/Dagger calcs:
Mongoose ist not accounted for. In all cells it compares for "Mongoose" instead of "Mongoose (MH)" or "Mongoose (OH)"


Some general improvements in the formulas:
instead of using

IF(ValueTypeInt=0;..;IF(ValueTypeInt=1;...

you should use the much cleaner

CHOOSE(ValueTypeInt+1; <0-case>; <1-case>; <2-case>)

The armorranking can be neatly expressed as (e.g. helmet; cell 'Armor'.H2):
A caveat:
The value of Netherblade 2pc bonus is not fully reflected for daggers (maybe for swords as well).
Using the 2pc bonus allows a different cycle than 3s/5s/5r which results in superior DPS.
(the DPS-sheet indicates for my gear and spec a 5s/4r cycle).
As a result the Netherblade 2pc bonus is vastly undervalued.

 

Melnor

noob question here --- are the numerical values next to the gear the AEP values?

 

Darlal

Karmon,

Thanks for the bug catches. I've updated the ones you mentioned. A fixed spreadsheet should be going up later today.

Melnor,

The values in () are how big of an upgrade (or downgrade) the item is.

 

• Aldriana

Yes; daggers are always using 5/5/3 - it's on the list of things i'd like to change, but I haven't figured out what to change it to yet. The problem is that there's 3 different dagger cycles that might plausibly see use: 5s, 3s/5s/Xr, and 5s/Xr - figuring out which to use in the sheet is nontrivial.

Swords, on the other hand, capture Netherblade 2/5 fairly well; they use xS/5r as their cycle, and correctly drop from ~3s/5r down to 1s/5r with 2/5 Netherblade; however, this cycle compression only buys you a slightly higher rupture uptime so doesn't convert to a particularly large amount of damage, hence the low score.

It's what I call EAP values. Similar theory to AEP, but normalized with AP = 1 instead of Agi = 1.

 

◊ Shaker

Ald, quick suggestion since it's thrown a few people for a loop: How about changing "Optimal" hit to "Recommended" hit?

 

• Aldriana

Thing is, it's not recommended hit either - it's going to spit out numbers like 350, which is not in any way recommended.

I do agree that a better name might be in order - it's currently called Optimal because it's the total of the Optimal Socketing column, which is perfectly sensible but a bit misleading.

Honestly, though, I'm personally not convinced that the Optimal column is adding a lot of value; the numbers there are needed for internal comparisons (as when computing upgrades we compare optimal to optimal), but I'm not sure how much value it adds to have it displayed on the front page like that. What do people think about just abolishing the optimal column and displaying only current and recommended upgrades?

 

Melnor

I kinda liked the optimal column because it shows you what exact gems to put in the sockets for true min/maxing. Maybe optimal hit should just be ranamed to "this is how much hit rating you will have if you use the gems listed in the optimal column.."

 

genebart

Am I missing where to locate the recommended rotations on this spreadsheet? I see references to xS/5R on this thread, but I don't see where the "X" is suggested in the spreadsheet.

 

• Aldriana

It's not specifically displayed anywhere. It might also be noted that it's usually not an integer - i.e., it'll frequently be something like 2.7 which means you do some 2s and some 3s and on average it works out to 2.7. But since that's sort of confusing to explain I figured I wouldn't bother and just leave it hidded, figuring that so long as people know that to do the shortest SnD they can get away with, it shouldn't be that hard to figure it out on the fly.. But if people would like to see that number displayed, I can probably find a way to do that.

 

◊ Shaker

I like the optimal column quite a bit - for us lower gear folks, seeing the line where Delicate Living Ruby overtakes Bold, for example. Or just comparing enchants (though tbh there isn't a LOT of discussion on THAT front, except maybe for a new rogue going "Aldor or Scyers?")

I like "Hit rating from suggested optomizations".. but that's awfully long.

How about just a cell that lights up saying "Recommended Enchants/Gems will go over the +hit cap" that lights up only in that case.

 

• Aldriana

Version 0.6.1 is now available. No new features, just fixes for most of the bugs found recently.

Excel Version:http://www.savefile.com/files/789950
OO Version: http://www.savefile.com/files/789952

 

Cragzop

Argh and just after I finished entering in all my low level gear and cheap gems

I've found green gems (and even one white) useful to have available. It helps to see where the biggest bang for the upgrade buck is ...


I do have a comment about the calculations though. Is it intentional that critical values for gems are not used? A simple test is to go look at DPS and then goto the gem tab and cell R6 from 0 to 1000 (also cell R13). You'll see no change in DPS.

It's because the calculations that go into gcrit (cell R34 on the gem tab) are missing. It looks like the total calculations in R29 - R33 are also missing.

 

SmokeMT

I searched the thread and didn't find anything, but Cobrascale Hood is currently popping up a meta slot, even though there is no meta slot on it.

edit: Nevermind, totally misinterpretted the spreadsheet.

 

• Aldriana

Green gems I have no intention of ever putting in unless someone finds one that's strictly better than a blue. Not to sound like a jerk, but: I have no sympathy for people who raid but can't be bothered to buy decent gems (or enchants) for their stuff. A personal philosophical objection, if you well.

 

Xizenta

Aldriana, my data seems to suggest that no sundered boss has 5000 armor, but this is the value used in the spreadsheet.

Have you seen any data that would lead you to make this number the standard? I kicked some bosses in ssc tonight with a 5 point expose armor up and only had 17% damage mitigation.

 

Karmon

Regretfuly the mongoose enchant in 0.6.1 is only fixed for sword not for dagger calcs.
Cell B70 in Swordcalcs still has an error.

"Optimal hit" now misses +EHit

As Cragzop first mentioned the gemtotal in the gemsheet are broken (Gem!M29:R34).
The referenced ranges need adjustments and the crit column is emtpy.

 

Karmon

Some more errors in 0.6.1
Daggersskill seems not to affect MH Crit%/OH Crit% in the dagger calc sheet.

 

Darlal

Hah. This'll teach me to update things in a hurry at work. Anyway, the reason the crit column was empty is because no gems that gave crit were in the sheet when I was putting it together. I apologize for the lack of focus, I've been insanely busy at work for the past week or so. Hopefully I'll have time to really look at what I'm doing today and over the weekend.

About Ehit, it's not included in the Optimal Hit because Surefooted is calculated by name. Ehit refers to the current hit from enchantments, which could well be different from the "optimized" hit.

Since I'm going to be spending a bit of time cleaning things up, are there any new features burning a hole in people's pockets that I should be thinking about?

 

Nock

So I've been following this thread, but I hadn't downloaded this sheet until this morning. I played around with it for about 20 minutes, and it's definately interesting, but there are a few things that I had questions/concerns about. For any questions about my gear, just check my armory. (Nock on Thunderlord)

1. The Suggested Upgrade Column ignores the value of an item you have equipped if you don't have the location activated. For example, you have Primalstrike Bracers equipped, but "Crafted" isn't activated on the right, it treats you as wearing something w/ zero points. Probably more of a comment then a bug.

2. I understand that the Optimal column is a baseline, in theory. You did note earlier that the sheet is probably going to tell you to socket everything with a bunch of Rigid Dawnstones and raise your hit over the 308 cap that is needed. Well I have the opposite happen. My gear has 308 hit exactly, and the sheet is telling me to "optimally" switch 80% of my gems to Bright Living Rubies and lower my hit to 252. Given that I know how powerful that Combat Potency is along with Dragonspine, double Mongoose etc. I know that it's not the "optimal" thing to do. A little more playing around w/ sockets couldn't get the value from Bright Living Ruby to change from 16 to anything else. Is that a fixed value gem? It would seem once you reach the higher level of gearing and reach the hit cap that this would always happen to your sheet. Every Rigid Dawnstone that you socket lowers the value of the next one because in theory the AP should raise your DPS more. But with the happy-fun-times of procs, we know this isn't the case. I think this could lead some rogues to mis-socket their gear and lower their DPS instead of raising it.

3. Again with the Optimal sheet, I went and socketed my gear the way that it said I should, and my Current Hit didn't match the Optimal Hit, despite all of the sockets/enchants being identical. This made me wonder if it's using the stats for the highest Suggested Upgrade as well? There are blank fields in the Optimal column, which makes it unclear to me.

I do like the sheet, but I think it might be a little misleading for some people. I understand the concept of "take things with a grain of salt" but we don't want to spread any misinformation either. For a combat spec, I don't think there is anything better that you can do for yourself outside of getting 308 hit and abusing the heck out of procs (Dragonspine, Mongoose, Windfury) and yet this sheet doesn't reflect that theory. The way it tells me to socket would be for more of a PvP outlook (Max your AP, sacrifice hit due to non-sustained time on target) but this isn't a sheet for PvP.

 

Karmon

Welll then there is an other error wiht Optimal Hit. Without +EHit, Current Hit equals optimalhit
for my gear.
I think Optimal hit is missing now the "optimal enchants +hit".

 

Darlal

I was going to say that surefooted is the only enchant that adds hit, but then I realized we've included inscriptions and such as enchants (being an enchanter in-game I never considered them enchants...yeah, it was a stupid oversight).

I'll add those later today. I'm considering looking into building a better +hit module anyway since the frequent breaking of the hit cap makes the optimization function much less useful. I'll have to give some thought to how to do it in excel though.

Nock, without looking at your sheet my guess is that the root of your problem is that given your gear, hit and ap are very closely valued. Ap will always be worth 1 point because the sheet reflects eap (effective ap) of other stats. This allows us to calculate defensive and offensive stats separately since ap adds nothing to defense and stamina (the defensive benchmark) does nothing for offense. Without seeing the exact setup you're using it's a bit hard to tell exactly which gear combination you're using to get this effect. Also, are you using daggers or swords? The sheet is currently much more optimized for swords (daggers have more variable cycles as well as a bug or two that will be fixed later today).

 

Nock

Well, you can check my armory, but i'll list it here anyway. I am swords, and I have access to Kara/Gruul/Mag. I basically have the best gear from all of those places with the exception of the T4 chest. The sheet even reflects this fact in the Suggested Upgrade column (majority of the gear there is zero, as the piece I'm using is the best "upgrade".) I do understand that the gems are very close in value anyway, but it's the little details that push the great players even further. I'm no slouch when it comes to doing damage. I do my homework, I like the theorycrafting, and I push every edge out of my character that I can. Half of the people on this forum and I would think people like yourself who spend the time on sheets like this do it because they have the same mindset. If I can gain 1 DPS per gem socket by switching to different gems, that's alot. Most gear upgrades only improve your DPS by 3-5. Sure you have the freakish upgrades like Dragonspine Trophy (I'll cry when this is nerfed) but you also have things like Ring of a Thousand Marks vs. Garona's Signet Ring; Primalstrike Bracers vs. Nightfall Wristguards; Netherblade Facemask vs. Mask of the Deceiver and more that are not as easy to quantify. That's when we turn to spreadsheets.

Anyway, here's the gear I've input.

Night Elf
Offensive

*Netherblade Facemask
Glyph of Ferocity
Swift Skyfire Diamond
Glinting Noble Topaz

*Choker of Vile Intent

*Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless
Greater Inscription of Vengeance
Rigid Dawnstone
Rigid Dawnstone

*Drape of the Dark Reavers
Greater Agility

*Chestguard of the Conniver
Exceptional Stats

*Primalstrike Bracers
Assault (Bracer)

*Netherblade Gloves
Assault (Gloves)

*Girdle of Treachery
Glinting Noble Topaz
Glinting Noble Topaz

*Skulker's Greaves
Cobrahide Leg Armor
Rigid Dawnstone
Rigid Dawnstone
Rigid Dawnstone

*Edgewalker Longboots
Glinting Noble Topaz
Rigid Dawnstone

*Ring of a Thousand Marks

*Violet Signet of the Master Assassin

*Dragonspine Trophy

*Drake Fang Talisman

*Spiteblade
Mongoose (MH)

*Latro's Shifting Sword
Mongoose (OH)

*Steelhawk Crossbow

Given that, the sheet tells me that I should go from my 308 hit down to 252 by replacing every Rigid Dawnstone with a Bright Living Ruby because the Dawnstone is currenly worth 15.24 APE vs. the Ruby's 16 APE. We all should know that I would be a fool to replace all of my Dawnstones and go away from the Hit Cap, but the sheet thinks I would do more damage by doing so. Sure, it might only be the difference of a 7 APE change if I did it, but at this point a Netherblade Chestpiece is a 7 APE upgrade for me. Also since the value of some items are based around the fact that they have sockets, and the way you socket them is what makes them truely worthwhile, this is certainly important.

 

Cragzop

Aldriana, how could I take offense at that? You're right and as soon as I get to a more stable gear set I intend to return to that philosophy.

Also I was remiss in ealier not stating my profound thanks for your and the other's excellent work on this.

 

Darlal

Okay!

First, thank you for taking the time to type up your gear, it really helps.

I've spent a few hours looking into things and it looks to me like it boils down to, hit is worth more than AP, but not quite twice as much. Thus a gem that give 16 ap is actually better than one that give 8 hit. This is true until you hit around 2100 ap (hit scales really well with ap). 2100 is easy to get with buffs, and at that point hit takes the lead. I've asked aldriana to clarify a few things that I noticed while pounding through the calculations (I usually leave that to him), so hopefully he'll post later with some more info.

Again, thank you for asking good questions.