i will never understand why so many rogues are hesitant in speccing into anti-fear/stun. It's a great chance to continue dps and a useful filler.
Speaking of useful fillers... Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft or even zero WEx and 1 imp kick is better then going above the cap and wasting talent points...
If it was a viable trinket, I would agree, but since it isn't, wouldn't you rather keep the talent points and use a trinket with higher dps, thus upping your total dps.
If the blackend Nauru sliver had it, yeah, I'd agree that it's worth speccin out of, but as we can all see, Shard of Contempt should be EASILY avoided by almost anyone farming BT/Hyjal and moving into Sunwell, thus, no need to spec out.
Edit: EASILY is proabbly wrong after rereading vulajin's note. If it is just slightly worse than DST, then it's possible that spending the points somewhere else would be worth it.
So, the issue with speccing out of WEx is that there are no damage talents to take instead. And this is not to say that some of the talents you can get instead (Nerves of Steel, for instance) aren't good - but they don't help your DPS at all.
So, for instance: Shard of Contempt gives 44 expertise rating and a proc. But if you drop both points in WEx to stay under the Expertise cap with it, what you've really gained is effectively a trinket that gives 4 expertise rating, the proc, and 10% stun/fear resist. Is that a bad trinket? No. Might it get used in pvp? Perhaps. But can *anyone* honestly say that they'd use that regularly for raiding? No.
And that's fundamentally the issue with trading out WEx. The utility it gives is certainly nice... but when compared to doing more damage, there's just not a lot of reason to take them. So fundamentally, any Expertise on gear that, when coupled with WEx, puts you over the hit cap is wasted damage - regardless of whether you take WEx or not.
For a rogue who's farming Hyjal/BT and advancing into Sunwell, both of your observations are quite accurate. However, rogues before that point will certainly get plenty of use out of the Shard, as the only item with expertise rating that such rogues are likely to wear is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Human rogues, of course, will have little use for both items together, but quite a large number of rogues are not human, and those rogues can wear the belt together with [Shard of Contempt] to cap their expertise (wasting only 5 rating).
Anyway, for what it's worth the estimate of the actual AP effect of the trinket is about 88 (nearly 40% uptime). So if you can't get any value out of the expertise, that's how much the trinket's worth.
If the only other expertise item I'm wearing is Slayer's Boots and I have WEx, I get the trinket to be worth roughly 193. Still dont see why its so useless for T6 rogues, unless I'm way off in calculating its value.
I don't think anyone is claiming that it's useless... I think there was some assertion that it probably wasn't excessively better than the existing nonDST trinkets, but that was based on guesses at the proc rate. As the proc rate is somewhat higher than our guesses, the trinket is of course correspondingly better.
That said: it's unlikely to be better than both DST and Naaru Sliver, meaning it's not best in slot; and while it's certainly an upgrade until one gets Sliver, it's also true that relative to the other upgrades available in T6 content it's a reasonably small upgrade. Neither of which is a reason not to run Magister's Terrace to get it; it's not like it costs you DKP - but nor is it a particularly big deal if you don't get around to picking one up. Fundamentally: according to our best guesses at this time, it is a pretty good trinket that is relatively easy to obtain and thus reasonably interesting; but as it's not expected to be endgame gear for a Sunwell rogue, it's not as interesting as it might be.
This might be premature, since WoTLK is still out in the distance, and perhaps off topic as well, since this is a post about raiding gear, but at would point would you be capped for WeX when we are back to having to level? My gut feeling is that parry is a lot higher than dodge for most mobs, so even after capping dodge it might be a worthwhile stat? You'd only be getting half the value since it would only be eliminating one of the two (parry and dodge) but that is the case with raiding now anyway...
So might it be worthwhile to at least consider having a stacked WeX set?
Well, I suppose it's all relative. The Shard appears to be the third best trinket in the game, especially if you don't have the Vashj belt. Many of us never got the DST. Many of us never got the WSC. I run Berserker's and Romulo's. That's as good as it gets for me. It seems like the Shard is a blatantly obvious, superb choice and even if somehow a WSC >>or<< DST came my way that'd still be true (I run a Gruul nearly every week if possible; ugh).
Yes, the Ashtongue is on its way soon enough and I suppose I could get a Madness. But the hunters are obsessed with burning DKP on hit gear, and honestly, while it's a real upgrade for me, I can't see spending big to get one -- assuming we even have the luck of seeing it drop. (Our guild in two raid teams was a zero Tsunami Talisman group; such is the dice.)
I'll be running heroic Magister's every day until I get the shard and I doubt it'll get replaced unless I get both the Sliver and the DST. And under that logic, I'm not sure why there isn't more excitement over it. Again, I suppose it's all relative.
I have a feeling the observed proc will either change on its "own" *cough* blizzard or will be changed in a patch or two. Blizz seems to nerf proc items a lot previously, so I def can see this happening again, and as a human with the vashj belt at 21 expertise (23 is the cap, right?) I doubt I'll want it. And, if they do nerf the proc any at all, I can see it becoming < wsc/madness/ashtongue, which two of those are easily picked up, one through 1 boss (I know, crappy drops, blah blah) and the other through rep that EVERYONE will be able to get some 2.4...
Blizzard's nerfed a couple of procs lately, but really only the overpowered ones. The only two that immediately spring to mind are WSC and Warglaives, both of which were a little too good for what they were. Thus, I only see this getting nerfed if it's decided to be too powerful for where it drops.
Now, off the top of my head, it does seem a bit overtuned; my impression was that Magister's Terrace loot was supposed to be somewhere between Karazhan and ZA in quality, and while trinket quality doesn't correlate particularly well with zone (DST (T4) > WSC (T5) > MotB (T6)) this trinket does seem more like low-T6 quality more than T4.5 quality. Thus, while it wouldn't *totally* surprise me if it gets changed, I don't think it can be assumed that it will be, as even if it is a bit overpowered right now it's not nearly at the level DST and Warglaives were pre-nerf.
Thanks Aldriana for making this spreadsheet so far helps a lot but I have a question about gemming issues. Right now if I'm completely unbuffed it says that 8 agility is greater than 8 hit or 4 hit and 4 agility. Now when adding even more agility gems in it continues to make their value even greater. Is my damage too low and I just need more attack power. If so is there a time at which hit rating gems surpass the agility?
I downloaded the spreadsheet a couple of weeks ago and really haven't used it much. I happened to be on an alt at the Lower City Quartermaster and noticed the [Shapeshifter's Signet]. I noticed that the ring itself wasn't on the spreadsheet also. I am gonna run BT clear tonight to see if there's a change in DPS and look at WWS. Was wondering if it was worth replacing [Ring of a Thousand Marks].
Was also wondering if a updated spreadsheet had the ring for analysis.
I'm lowering myself from 320 hit to 301 hit, 1977 to 1958 ap, -.40 crit rating and raising my Expertise from 18 to 23.
I would probably re-gem my tabi boots with rigid lionseye instead of the glinting ones as well.
My recollection is that it was omitted because it's not really very good - comparable with the preraid blues. I could be misremembering, of course; feel free to plug in into the sheet and find out for yourself.
Has there been some analysis on the shard I didn't see? It hasn't dropped for me yet so I've not known what the proc is like. From what I'm reading here it's sounding like it's currently the best trinket?
Has there been some analysis on the shard I didn't see? It hasn't dropped for me yet so I've not known what the proc is like. From what I'm reading here it's sounding like it's currently the best trinket?
More like 2nd to 3rd best depending on proc rate. The general feeling is the Blackened Naaru Sliver is going to be the best, and either DST or Shard will be #2 depending on gear and spec.
Originally Posted by Nite_Moogle
Also for the frequency with which people get called out for not having achievements when they talk about specifics of a fight, about 90% of the posts in this thread crying about how easy (or hard) the zone is shouldn't exist. You're the new 1500 rated experts on the subject of top-end PVP. Congratulations.
I'm noticing a bug with the Optimal to use Socket Bonus column in the 0.9.4 Sheet (No, not the stupid question that gets asked every page about why it's saying 'No' when I actually do make the bonus).
For [Deadly Cuffs], it's saying that the optimal gem to use is the Rigid Lionseye, but still saying 'No' in the Optimal to use socket bonus category. Since the Socket in those bracers is yellow, using the Optimal gem (a yellow one) should make that bonus, so it should say 'Yes' there.
It seems to work fine for [Shadowmaster's Boots], where it suggests a Glinting Pyrestone / Rigid Lionseye and is actually saying 'Yes' to that one.
I'm noticing a bug with the Optimal to use Socket Bonus column in the 0.9.4 Sheet (No, not the stupid question that gets asked every page about why it's saying 'No' when I actually do make the bonus).
I think all it's telling you is if the socket bonus is worth considering to socket for. +3 stam, no. +3 crit rating, yes. It's just happens that there's a yellow slot for a good recommended gem to fit in to.
It's saying 'No' because the bonus of +3 stamina doesn't improve your offensive value. If you had the sheet on weighted total, that would be different.
It's saying 'No' because the bonus of +3 stamina doesn't improve your offensive value. If you had the sheet on weighted total, that would be different.
Ah, that's it. My mistake, I thought the column said 'Yes' any time the recommended gems matched the socket colors, not any time they matched AND the socket bonus would help you in some way.
Honestly, it probably should be the other way... the current check is that if socketing for the bonus is better than just stuffing everything with the best gem, "Use Socket" is Yes; otherwise, it's no. Now, for most cases, this is fine; but in this case (where they're the same thing) it would probably be slightly more correct to make the check "if it's better than or equal to" rather than just "strictly better than". In practice it matters precisely not at all, but it might be a bit more clear.
When assigning a value to the Ashtongue trinket, does the spreadsheet account for DPS attributed to energy-queued sinister strikes that occur during trinket uptime, or does it simply apply the buff under whatever cycle is optimal and obtain an item value from that? I don't recall this question ever being explicitly addressed, only the fact that micromanagement of energy was very useful in conjunction with this trinket. So, is this trinket likely to be undervalued in the spreadsheet or is the listed value pretty accurate?
I do not believe either of the spreadsheets take into account energy queuing or extensive micromanagement. They just average. Thus, if you were really on top of your game, you could theoretically edge out more DPS in an ideal circumstance. At that level of micromanagement, though, the RNG is likely to make more difference (as well as boss turning and other elements of the fight that aren't modeled) than your queuing of energy.
02/26/08, 1:24 PM
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