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Old 03/07/08, 11:27 PM   #2301
tymoney321
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Dark Iron
I'm guessing this is in response to the necro buff?
General
- Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other.

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Old 03/08/08, 12:41 PM   #2302
Feist-Mok
Bald Bull
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
Originally Posted by tymoney321 View Post
I'm guessing this is in response to the necro buff?
General
- Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other.


It'll make stacking that with heroism worthless, but it's primarily being done to keep the new Power Infusion from being OP in conjunction with Heroism and talents like Icy Veins etc. as far as I can tell.

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Old 03/08/08, 7:57 PM   #2303
Dontmindme
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
After i hit exalted with SSO on the PTR (spare me the nerd comments please...) i went to Dire Maul and hit on the Spirits for some time. Ended up with 3 logs of each one hour.
2.6 dual wield, 2.79 passive haste (my mainhand broke somewhen in the last 10 minutes i think)
2.1 dual wield, 2.79 passive haste
Warglaives (Exe, Mongoose), MotB, DST, 2.79 passive haste

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Here's what I've got so far...
Looking only at the number of actual attacks (excluding those within 45 seconds of procs)...
2.1 dual wield = 70 procs in 536 eligible attacks or 13.0597%
2.6 dual wield = 68 procs in 456 eligible attacks or 14.9123%
Warglaives++ = 74 procs in 473 eligible attacks or 15.6448%

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Old 03/08/08, 8:26 PM   #2304
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Hmm, looks like we could use some testing with a faster weapon. Based on that information, it could either by flat ~15% proc rate, or something like 4 PPM.

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Old 03/08/08, 8:34 PM   #2305
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Auchindoun (EU)
Just grabbed a pair of 1.6 daggers, expect some data in an hour

edit:
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Last edited by koaschten : 03/08/08 at 10:38 PM.

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Old 03/08/08, 10:56 PM   #2306
latrine
Glass Joe
 
Orc Shaman
 
Detheroc
Sorry if this has already been noted, but the Trouser's of the Scryer's Retainer is marked as using the Slayer's set in the Armor sheet.

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Old 03/09/08, 12:36 AM   #2307
Dontmindme
King Hippo
 
Dwarf Rogue
 
Icecrown
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
Just grabbed a pair of 1.6 daggers, expect some data in an hour

edit:
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I get 104 procs in 761 eligible attacks for 13.6662%.

I think a parse wielding a slow weapon just in the main hand might help (no offhand). Should raise the proc rate enough to distinguish if its a PPM vs. % proc. A 2.6 or higher speed weapon just in the main hand should bring the proc rate to at least 20-21% if its a PPM proc. If we see 13-16% again, is a percent based proc.

Edit: Of course, just thought of it, dual-wielding two such slow weapons would do the same with more attacks per hour. The thing with the previous tests is having a lot of fast off-hand attacks alongside the main-hand ones is diluting the difference in attack speeds.

Last edited by Dontmindme : 03/09/08 at 1:01 AM.

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Old 03/09/08, 1:39 AM   #2308
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Well, if 1.6 speed is 13.662%, and 2.6 speed is 14.9123%, I think we can rule out PPM. In terms of an initial estimate, I'd probably go with 15% proc rate and a 45 sec cooldown - it might not be exactly right, but it'll certainly be close enough to get the ranking right.

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Old 03/11/08, 4:42 AM   #2309
• QControl
bad game
 
Orc Rogue
 
Mal'Ganis
Just to correct something, the Scryer proc on the necklace isn't 100 crit rating, it's this. Seems to be considered a melee attack in regards to crit too.

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Old 03/11/08, 5:43 AM   #2310
evl
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
<nam>
Stormscale (EU)
I just noticed Rigid Bladestone and Delicate Fire Ruby have never been implemented in the game but are still present in the spreadsheet

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Old 03/11/08, 6:12 AM   #2311
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Originally Posted by QControl View Post
Just to correct something, the Scryer proc on the necklace isn't 100 crit rating, it's this. Seems to be considered a melee attack in regards to crit too.
Hmm... surprising. I can see making Aldor and Scryer do somewhat different effects, but I'm surprised that they're so totally different - seems like it'd be hard for them to balance. I almost wonder if it's a bug.

Anyway, if the proc effect is totally different, one can only assume that the proc rate might also be different; so until we can get some testing on the precise proc rate (once with a fast weapon and once with a slow weapon, anyway) we can't accurately model it in the sheet.

Assuming, however, that the proc rate is the same: the Aldor proc seems to be somewhat better than the Scryer proc - at least, given my gear, that's the case.

Originally Posted by evl View Post
I just noticed Rigid Bladestone and Delicate Fire Ruby have never been implemented in the game but are still present in the spreadsheet
True. But as they're not getting recommended anyway, I'm not sure how much I care. There's still some chance that they'll be added, and I'd hate to take them out just to have to put them back in in a month or two. If they were being recommended as optimal, it'd be another story; but since the only harm they're doing right now is that you can pretend your gear is better than it actually is... I'm inclined to leave them (unless there's an overwhelming opinion I should do otherwise).

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Old 03/11/08, 6:50 AM   #2312
evl
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
<nam>
Stormscale (EU)
I can also confirm the spreadsheet blows up bigtime in Numbers (iWork)

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Old 03/11/08, 8:06 AM   #2313
Gakuto
Banned
 
Human Priest
 
Skullcrusher
Hmm, that's an interesting patch note.

Would this mean DST and haste potion would not stack?

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Old 03/11/08, 8:33 AM   #2314
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
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Worgen Rogue
 
Auchindoun (EU)
Would be news to me that >[Dragonspine Trophy]< and >[Recipe: Haste Potion]< are:
a) percent based
b) non-self buffed

Don't see a problem there...

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Old 03/11/08, 9:11 AM   #2315
tymoney321
Von Kaiser
 
Orc Rogue
 
Dark Iron
The change could have been in response to the necromancer buff, unholy frenzy...Thottbot World of Warcraft: Unholy Frenzy

Increases an ally's attack speed by 100% for 20 sec., but also inflicts 500 Nature damage to that ally every 2 sec.
(Stackable)

Though its clear it is directed toward Power Infusion+Heroism.

Last edited by tymoney321 : 03/11/08 at 7:29 PM.

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Old 03/11/08, 9:49 AM   #2316
Oscarvil
Piston Honda
 
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Gnome Rogue
 
Proudmoore
But blade flurry and slice and dice are both percentage based, so do they longer stack with heroism? Or am I misunderstanding what the patch note means?

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Old 03/11/08, 9:51 AM   #2317
koaschten
In the rear with the gear!
 
koaschten's Avatar
 
Worgen Rogue
 
Auchindoun (EU)
Oscarvil, those are self-buffs. The patchnotes explicitly say
- non-selfbuffed
- percentage based
will not stack anymore.

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Old 03/11/08, 11:11 AM   #2318
Atren
Piston Honda
 
Orc Shaman
 
Shattered Halls (EU)
Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other.

So unless you cant use blade flurry and slice and dice when silenced i would say it wont affect ya. It is for spells only by that wording. As stated above it was meant to nerf Bloodlust + Power Infusion. They choosed that opposed to choosing one of them (for example IV + Bloodlust were not stacking change which was replaced later with this rule).

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Old 03/11/08, 1:07 PM   #2319
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
It does, however, presumably mean that Unholy Frenzies won't stack with each other, nor will they stack with Heroism.

Originally Posted by evl View Post
I can also confirm the spreadsheet blows up bigtime in Numbers (iWork)
It may surprise you (but probably not) that I don't care in the slightest. But if you'd like to work on creating a version that would work, go right ahead.

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Old 03/11/08, 5:44 PM   #2320
evl
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
<nam>
Stormscale (EU)
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
It may surprise you (but probably not) that I don't care in the slightest. But if you'd like to work on creating a version that would work, go right ahead.
I was actually pondering how hard it would be to write an AJAX version that can pull from Armory. And yes, I wasn't being serious about Numbers...

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Old 03/11/08, 5:59 PM   #2321
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Armory pull is definitely a nice feature, but I've sort of decided that if I'm going to do that at all it's going to be in the aforementioned real-programming-language implementation of this rather than trying to do it from a spreadsheet. Basically, there's enough features (such as Armory pull, among many many others) that are enough easier to do from, for instance, Python that I really do feel that that's the correct long-term approach to making a fully-featured, easily-maintainable rogue calculation tool; hence, I've been working (on and off) on that rather than worrying about trying to hack Excel into doing what I want. But if you'd like to try to implement such a thing: by all means, feel free.

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Old 03/12/08, 5:21 AM   #2322
evl
Piston Honda
 
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Blood Elf Rogue
 
<nam>
Stormscale (EU)
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
for instance, Python that I really do feel that that's the correct long-term approach to making a fully-featured, easily-maintainable rogue calculation tool
That sounds like a really good idea, especially since you can split it up into small maintainable classes. But unless you are going to fully utilize Python you might as well do it in HTML/ECMAScript and have it online IMHO.

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Old 03/12/08, 8:18 AM   #2323
drumbum
King Hippo
 
Human Rogue
 
Sargeras
Originally Posted by Atren View Post
Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other.

So unless you cant use blade flurry and slice and dice when silenced i would say it wont affect ya. It is for spells only by that wording. As stated above it was meant to nerf Bloodlust + Power Infusion. They choosed that opposed to choosing one of them (for example IV + Bloodlust were not stacking change which was replaced later with this rule).
Generally speaking, Blade Flurry and Slice and Dice are considered "spells" as well. They just aren't magic. Based on the patch notes I'd definitely say physical spells would in theory be affected by this change, although I am not aware of any non-magic haste buffs that are castable on other players. Since Blade Flurry and Slice and Dice are not castable on other players, they obviously are unaffected.

I don't really see any situation where rogues will be negatively affected by this change.

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Old 03/12/08, 3:14 PM   #2324
Feist-Mok
Bald Bull
 
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Human Rogue
 
Ysera
As has been mentioned several times now, the negative for rogues is heroism + necromancers in hyjal, and drums.

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Old 03/12/08, 3:17 PM   #2325
• Aldriana
Mike Tyson
 
Night Elf Rogue
 
Doomhammer
Drums are haste rating, not %-based; they are unaffected by this change.

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