Nalisol

Thread summaries:

Oglas has written a summary of research so far at post #500 (page 20). Please note, not everything listed there has been throughly tested, but it's the best we've got so far.

My brief summary:

Weapon skill acts differently, depending on whether the skill difference is >10 or <= 10.

Weapon Skill does not seem to affect parry, block or glancing rates. Weapon skill does affect dodge rates. See post #32 for data.

The base miss rate against Level 73 bosses is 9.0% (28% for dual wielding). This is higher than previously expected. See post #383 for test details.


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Original post:

This has been somewhat discussed in the Rogue Damage Spreadsheet thread, but after reading through pages 41-60 of that thread, I still wasn't sure if a conclusive testing result was reached.

So in brief...

Old Conventional Wisdom stated that Weapon Skill was the opposite of defense skill. As such, it conferred a 0.04% gain to your hit/crit chances and a -0.04% to your opponent's dodge/parry/block chances. The old view is well summarized on WoW Wiki's Weapon Skill Page.
Additionally, there was a blue patch note that Weapon Skill also increased your Crit RATING (not crit value) by a small 0.1% per skill point if you were fighting monsters above your level.

The new theory is based on an post on the EU Forums in response to the general complaint that Weapon Skill was useless (which it nearly is under the Old Conventional Wisdom). This post claims that against a mob 3 levels higher than you, each point of weapon skill provides 0.2% to your hit/crit chance, and -0.6% parry, -0.1% dodge to your opponent.

This discussion is about whether the old model, the new model, or some other model is correct.

The new model has one major thing going for it: The new numbers make weapon skill useful. Blizzard has historically stated that Weapon Skill is the best use of an itemization point, however under the old math this statement was not true, in fact, it wasn't even close to true.
On the minus side, the new model seems to provide very strange numbers for the actual effect. Why -0.6% parry, but only -0.1% dodge? Also, by having weapon skill NOT the opposite of defense skill, you end up with strange behavior when one side has improved weapon skill and the other side has improved defense skill.

Of course, who needs speculation when people can TEST! Based on posts in the Rogue Damage Spreadsheet thread, it seems like there is some backing for weapon skill providing 0.1% increase to hit, but only 0.04% increase in crit. Does the new model cause weapon skill to have any effect on your opponent's dodge/parry/block rates?

 

• Aldriana

So, the rogue testing showed .1% hit is correct for level 70 mobs fairly definitively, and was reasonably strong evidence that it was also true for level 73s. The interesting part of the analysis is that it appeared the mobs increase miss chance by .5% per level they are above you, rather than the .2% you'd expect from 5 defense.

As for crit% - the tooltip shows .04% per skill, but it would not count the .1% against higher level mobs. As far as I know whether that bonus is real is an open question.

As far as I know no one has tested the quantity of dodge and parry reduction that +skill grants. I have been assuming it still gives .04% per point, but I have no basis for that assumption.

 

Punscho

I did some testing posted in the rogue thread versus some lower level mobs. At 45 skill more I did experience parries and dodges but at 50 skill plus I didn't notice anything for some 3000 swings. This data set could be larger I know but it got pretty boring :P

If it's 0.1% per skill point that is what would be expected I guess.

This also makes weapon skill a great tanking stat since we're the only ones hitting stuff in the face. Mallet of the tides and that black temple axe...

But it would be nice with a really huge parse from a beefed up +skiller and someone without versus only bosses. Wiping at Onyxia maybe?

 

Athinira

This is for dual wielders i assume? Does anyone have some info on if it works differently for a feral druid?

Moderator and Organizer on The Druid Wiki
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Cuandoman

This definitely applies to Druids too. The major difference is that we tank with a 2-hander like that pug warrior you had for your last ZF group

Earthwarden
Binds when picked up
UniqueTwo-Hand Mace
142 - 279 Damage Speed 3.20
(65.8 damage per second)
500 Armor
+39 Stamina
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 70
Requires Cenarion Expedition - Exalted
Equip: Increases defense rating by 27.
Equip: Increases feral combat skill rating by 24.
Equip: Increases attack power by 556 in Cat, Bear, Dire Bear, and Moonkin forms only.

Good stuff.

 

• Aldriana

Well, all the testing was done by rogues, so, yeah, it was all dual wielders. It would be interesting to have a single-wielder run some tests to see if the same thing applies.

If you want to read the full analysis, swing by the rogue dps thread (Rogue DPS Spreadsheet) and check out the posts in the late 800s and 900s.... post 972 has a reasonable summary of the specifics. The short version is:

The only model we came up with that accurately reflects all data we took was that hit rating gives the usual 1% hit for every 15.77 hit rating; weapon skill gives .1% hit; and the base miss chance against a level 73 mob is 25.5% (versus 24% for a level 70).

The recommended methodology for single wield would be to test at a range of hit ratings and pinpoint when you stop missing (which will take a couple thousand swings to determine for certain), and use that to reverse engineer what the base miss chance is.

 

Nalisol

So I did some testing on dodge/parry. I went to Zangamarsh and ran autoattacks on the Bogflare Needlers (guaranteed level 62) for about 15 minutes. I am a 11/43/7 Mace specced rogue. Unfortunately that means that the Needlers spent a lot of time stunned, and when they weren't stunned they were sometimes casting (which I believe prevents them from dodging/parrying).

360 Weapon Skill, 187 Hit Rating, +5% Precision
1580 Total Attacks
1533 Landed (97.03%)
31 Missed (1.96%)
15 Parried (0.95%)
1 Dodged (0.06%)

The 1 dodge was pretty disheartening, since I got it near the end. =) Apparently, it means that Weapon Skill does not quite provide -0.1% to your opponent's dodge per level, but it's definitely far more than the old -0.04%. The real number of attacks I had where the needler wasn't casting or stunned is probably closer to 800, so I would consider the real parry rate to be about 2%.

 

Punscho

Or maybe those extra skill you have above your level (WEx) only applies to mobs (defense) above your level. That is after all what the blue post stated about crit. I did my testing without the WEx talent.

 

Nalisol

Good point. I'll try running a test with daggers (I only have the +10 to maces). On the other hand, there was a pretty significant discrepancy between dodge and parry, so that bit of info is interesting.

 

Punscho

At 40 weapon skill more than defense (8 levels excluding WEx) the supposed parry, dodge an block would be 1% and parry got closer to 2%. Now I don't really remember the statistics course I took a couple of years ago but that does not seem totally far off based on ~1500 swings.

 

• Aldriana

If theoretical value is 1%, then anything between .5% and 1.5% is within statistical bounds for 1500 swings. 2% is actually pretty unlikely.

 

Nalisol

The test was originally to check to see if Weapon Skill was causing -0.1% dodge/parry rate per level. I had 360 weapon skill during the test against level 62 mobs (310 defense). I got a whole bunch of parries, and a single dodge. So, the theory of -0.1% per point of weapon skill against lower level opponents isn't the right one unless bonus skill (Weapon Expertise) is counted differently than innate skill.

The percentages from this test are NOT really worth very much because:
A) I am mace specced, which means that even with just autoattacks, the guys ended up stunned for long periods
B) Needlers have a spell they cast periodically. When players are casting, they can't dodge, block, or parry. I'm unsure if this is also true for mobs, but assuming it is, then I got free hits in during this time.

I'll try this conceptual test again with 350 weapon skill against level 60s to try to verify Punscho's data.

 

◊ Fellwraith

It most likely is not true, I have had shield bashes parried and dodged when a mob is casting (I'm fairly certain they have been blocked before too, but the spell is still interrupted so I don't usually go back and look at my combat log). I might be incorrect in assuming special attacks are treated the same as white damage however.

 

• Apate

I can't speak to the latter part of your statement, but I've had more than one pummel blocked in my day. I'd wager that if I took off my +hit gear, I could get a blocked pummel in a very short time frame.

See you, auntie.
"You don't need a machine to make a rainbow. For rainbows are made of happy thoughts, and dreams, and chocolate unicorns, and gumdrops, and licorice sunsets, and fuzzy gumdrop bears, and sugar-coated chocolate gumdrop land."

Originally Posted by DeeNogger I am coming for you Apate.

 

◊ Shaker

Pummel has a lower damage range than shield bash though (doesn't it?) if it's fully blocked, then the pummel won't go through, whereas a shield bash would be partially blocked, but the interrupt would still go through. I'm pretty sure this works the same as with kick for rogues.

 

Cel

Block and Miss aren't related in any way on the roll chart, if I understand it correctly.

"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell

Alpha is recruiting... go go.

 

• Apate

I believe you do and that I have no idea what I was thinking with that part of the statement.

However, I stand by my anecdote of having a pummel blocked, which is the relevant info regarding whether or not a yellow attack can be blocked during a cast. I've also had a shield bash blocked, but the last time I specifically remember that happening was while tanking the shaman during the Thekal event.

See you, auntie.
"You don't need a machine to make a rainbow. For rainbows are made of happy thoughts, and dreams, and chocolate unicorns, and gumdrops, and licorice sunsets, and fuzzy gumdrop bears, and sugar-coated chocolate gumdrop land."

Originally Posted by DeeNogger I am coming for you Apate.

 

Cel

This is something I've wanted to test for some time. I've been told both ways, that yes you can block/parry/dodge attacks while casting, and that the only time you'll see that is if you actually miss the cast time by an instant due to lag and the server returns the result of the interrupt as if there was no cast going on at the time.

"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell

Alpha is recruiting... go go.

 

Eylirria

I think the whole assumption that things wouldnt be parried/blocked/dodged while casting come from the recent findings regarding the paladin tanking bug. (Acknowledged by Blizzard, promised a fix soon)

We know some mechanics don't apply to monsters the same way they apply to players. We have all sorts of restrictions (can't dodge from behind, can't block without shield being wielded), whereas I'm sure all of us still scratch our heads when a dual wielding mob blocks an attack... It blocked? With What? Still remember level 20 bears partially blocking my attacks as well. WTB: Druid Block, PST.

So don't take that assumption too much to heart regarding what the mob is doing. But sure, it would be best to conduct testing on monsters we are guaranteed a 100% clear test that doesn't involve things we don't completely understand.

 

• Apate

Well, if we're really testing things, we should do so on both players and mobs.

Of course, we are hoping that the observed behavior jives with the intended as always, so hopefully that bug fix will indeed come 'soon.'

See you, auntie.
"You don't need a machine to make a rainbow. For rainbows are made of happy thoughts, and dreams, and chocolate unicorns, and gumdrops, and licorice sunsets, and fuzzy gumdrop bears, and sugar-coated chocolate gumdrop land."

Originally Posted by DeeNogger I am coming for you Apate.

 

suicuique

The interesting thing about weapon skill is its supposed usefullness against higher level mobs. Especially +3 Lvl mobs.
I know that this makes testing as a Lvl 70 player a little more difficult (read: raid settings), but e.g. for tanking purposes I dont give a damn how weapon skill scales against equal level mobs. Back in the day when weapon skill was changed, the blue stated explicitely that weapon skill woul get more usefull with higher level mobs.

What would the easiest skull mob be to test this on? Attumen?
I'd like to contribute to the testing but atm I have not a single piece of + weapon skill gear.

 

Nalisol

Actually, due to the way skull mobs work, I believe they're always 3 levels higher than you. You can go find old raid bosses, and they should work correctly. However, the old bosses still do the same damage, they're only level 73 for the purposes of attack tables.

So I'm thinking maybe the snake boss in ZG? In phase 1, he doesn't do much after you kill the adds. He even heals himself to make things easier.

 

• songster

Onyxia. You could have phase 1 last more or less indefinitely with one tank and one healer. Maybe two healers if you were feeling worried. Eventually she'd get to phase 2, but with only a tank doing damage, that'd take a long time.

Tank could swap in sword/axe to check the effect of racials, swap in some weapon with +skill to double check by giving a third data point. Could also swap in 2h/sword-and-board/DW to check any other effects on (e.g.) hit.

It'd be very long and boring to do so, but that's pretty much a given for testing any small effects.