Elitist Jerks [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion

 07/30/07, 4:46 AM #256 sp00n Bald Bull   Surprise Night Elf Rogue   Wrathbringer (EU) 24% is how it is supposed to be. Stopped Playing
 07/30/07, 5:45 AM #257 Webb Von Kaiser   Webb Tauren Warrior   Ravencrest (EU) Yeah ok, thx for the quick replies. I just look at the cheese-cut diagrams on the Recount (Shift-rightclick) and if the colors are anything but red (crit), i burst out in tears. And now that I've rather successfully killed a fair deal of the ugly green hit-part, there is another very annoying part that reads "Glancing". It's just in that sence it is "too much". Too much out of my total damage, not too much out of the normal glancing rate. But bleh, guess you'll need your golden 5 weaponskills and stack crit/hit/AP as ever before.
07/30/07, 7:29 AM   #258
Noktelius
Glass Joe

Troll Rogue

Garona (EU)
(Sorry for my very bad english)

 Originally Posted by sp00n Maybe I should post the formulae which I currently assume. If 365-skill > 10 5 + 19 + 10*0.1 + (365-skill-10)*0.6 = Chance to Miss If 365-skill <= 10 (and >= 0) 5 + 19 + (365-skill)*0.1 = Chance to Miss
The formula proposed by spoon is indeed continuous :

D = Weapon skill - 355

If your weapon skill < 355 ( D < 0 ), your MissRate is MR1 = 25 - D x 0.6
If your weapon skill > 355 ( D > 0 ), your MissRate is MR2 = 25 - D x 0.1

(Against a lvl 73)

The function is continous : MR1(0) = MR2(0) = 25

But her derive function is not continuous :

MR1' (0)= 0.6
MR2' (0) = 0.1

It will be difficult to find a continuous fonction with a continuous derive function with such a change around 355.

For example, if you want :

Weapon skill = 350 ( D = -5 ) and MR = 28
Weapon skill = 355 ( D = 0 ) and MR = 25
Weapon skill = 365 ( D = 10 ) and MR = 24

Try MR = 24 + exp ( -D / A ) with A = 2.5 / ln 2 = 3.6067... It gives :

Weapon skill = 350 ( D = -5 ) MR = 28
Weapon skill = 355 ( D = 0 ) MR = 25
Weapon skill = 365 ( D = 10 ) MR = 24.0625

But it's only MR = 24.25 instead of 24.5 when D = 5 or weapon skill = 360

Last edited by Noktelius : 08/11/07 at 6:33 AM.

Patience et longueur de temps...

07/30/07, 9:32 AM   #259
Olgas
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Hunter

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Xaoc I take the opposite stance on this. There has never been any indication that pets have a "levels" to their weapon skills. I am almost positive that pets always have a maxed "weapon skill" for their level; similar to PvP encounters. There is no log entry that indicates that your pets increases their weapon skill, and there is no mention of it in the Character page for your pet.
You might be right on this. The problem is that we can't KNOW that you're right, because as you say, there is no mention of it in the Character page for your pet. All we have is conjecture, and I'll freely admit that your conjecture is as likely to be correct as mine. But the problem is we just don't know for sure. The interface doesn't tell us. So, since we can't know for a certainty what the pet's Weapon Skill is, and therefore it is problematic to use it for testing the impact of Weapon Skill.

07/30/07, 9:40 AM   #260
Olgas
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Hunter

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Xaoc I take the opposite stance on this. There has never been any indication that pets have a "levels" to their weapon skills. I am almost positive that pets always have a maxed "weapon skill" for their level; similar to PvP encounters. There is no log entry that indicates that your pets increases their weapon skill, and there is no mention of it in the Character page for your pet.
You might be right on this. The problem is that we can't KNOW that you're right, because as you say, there is no mention of it in the Character page for your pet. All we have is conjecture, and I'll freely admit that your conjecture is as likely to be correct as mine. But the problem is we just don't know for sure. The interface doesn't tell us. So, since we can't know for a certainty what the pet's Weapon Skill is, and therefore it is problematic to use it for testing the impact of Weapon Skill.

 07/30/07, 10:03 AM #261 Punscho Piston Honda     Edina Gnome Rogue   Ravencrest (EU) From levelling up I guess everyone notice how high missrate and avoidance and stuff you get versus a mob 4 levels above you. If the pet indeed "dings" the current level when getting tamed I think you would notice a much much higher miss rate than expected. If you don't see any drastic difference I think we could be quite certain they get maxed skill for their level, since it would be silly to assert somewhere inbetween. Really.
07/30/07, 11:10 AM   #262
Olgas
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Hunter

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Punscho From levelling up I guess everyone notice how high missrate and avoidance and stuff you get versus a mob 4 levels above you. If the pet indeed "dings" the current level when getting tamed I think you would notice a much much higher miss rate than expected. If you don't see any drastic difference I think we could be quite certain they get maxed skill for their level, since it would be silly to assert somewhere inbetween. Really.
Yes. But the whole reason this was even brought up was as a proposal to test the impact of Weapon Skill with precision. We're trying to get to the exact percentage here, per level of Weapon Skill.

So, if you're making ASSUMPTIONS about the pet's Weapon Skill -- assumptions that can't themselves be validated or refuted, well the test just won't end up being that valuable.

 07/30/07, 12:32 PM #263 Punscho Piston Honda     Edina Gnome Rogue   Ravencrest (EU) We all ASSUME all mobs have their level * 5 in defense, and that all skull mobs act your level + 3. If the pet have 20 skill less that the mob you'd see terribly awful performance and you can stop right away. If not, we can ASSUME to a high degree they got full skill. But hey if you don't want to do the test, just say so. Personally I like to have support for a theory from more than one source if possible. Last edited by Punscho : 07/30/07 at 12:40 PM.
 07/30/07, 2:00 PM #264 stampy Piston Honda   Unstampy Orc Death Knight   Executus Sorry for a mild derail, but a post in the TF thread made me curious about something, and its definitely less of a derail here than it would be there. Does anyone have any evidence as to whether weapon skill affects the hit/dodge/crit rates of shield slam? Thinking of it like +hit, it should; but thinking of it like mace skill with an offhand sword, it shouldn't. Obviously, my gut instinct is that the skill should affect shield slams, as there aren't any +shield skill items; but I don't feel comfortable about that assumption without any data or reason. Is there any out there?
07/30/07, 2:41 PM   #265
Olgas
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Hunter

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Punscho We all ASSUME all mobs have their level * 5 in defense, and that all skull mobs act your level + 3.
Actually, these things aren't just assumed.

Blizzard has specifically told us that skull mobs act like your Level +3. (I can't cite the blue post myself, but I know there was one on this.)

And, as for mobs having Level*5 in defense, yes, it is an assumption. But it is an assumption that has a lot of support behind it. There have been a lot of tests and multiple data points that have relied upon this assumption. And the assumption has held valid throughout all that testing. Unfortunately, we don't have anything like that for pets.

So, you see, not all assumptions are equal.

 Originally Posted by Punscho If the pet have 20 skill less that the mob you'd see terribly awful performance and you can stop right away. If not, we can ASSUME to a high degree they got full skill.
And how would you know how much of that "terribly awful performance" was due to a 20 point difference as compared to a 15 point difference? Exactly how much worse would it have to be? The problem is we just don't know. Because that's in fact what we're trying to test for.

 Originally Posted by Punscho But hey if you don't want to do the test, just say so.
OK. I don't want to do the test.

Let me take one more shot at explaining why I think it'd be a waste of time. I'll use an analogy.

It's like you're trying to measure something with a ruler. Except, you don't know for certain if that ruler is 12 inches long or 11 inches long. And you don't have any data to indicate one way or the other whether the ruler is 12 inches long or 11 inches long. Some people feel very strongly it's 12 inches, but others think it might be 11. Unfortunately, there's just no way to know for sure.

And what's worse about this particular ruler is that, if it happens to be 12 inches long, it will stay 12 inches long. But if happens to be 11 inches long, it will actually start growing towards 12 inches just as soon as you start using it to measure something! We don't know how fast it will grow, or when it will ultimately get to be 12 inches long. We just know that if it starts at 11, then using it to measure something will make it grow, and it will grow "invisibly" to us.

Now, I ask you, if you try to measure something with that ruler, how useful is the result?

 07/30/07, 4:18 PM #266 Punscho Piston Honda     Edina Gnome Rogue   Ravencrest (EU) Don't talk to me like I'm an imbecile. I don't appreciate it and it's not even a good analogy.
07/30/07, 4:48 PM   #267
Dontmindme
King Hippo

Dwarf Rogue

Icecrown
 Originally Posted by Webb But only one post comes even near the question of reducing the glancing blow/glancing blow damage (where it was suggested that more than 365 weaponskill would reduce, but no one followed up). Is it just widely accepted that it is impossible and at a fixed rate of 18-19%? Why do I get 24% almost on all boss tries? (measured on the first 4 bosses in SSC)
Well, I originally posed that question based on a limited sample (the only to that point with weapon skill over 365) showing 20-21% glancing. In this topic and related other topics, a number of people posted results with > 365 weapon skill. Looking at all the data together, I do not see any reduction; the average of this data seemed to hover around 24% and as many times as I saw 20-21% there were 26-28% to average them out. I'm personally satisfied that this issue has been resolved. We tried, but 24% seems to be a flat unalterable number that we all have to live with.

07/30/07, 5:15 PM   #268
Trazhenko
Don Flamenco

Troll Rogue

Illidan
 Originally Posted by Olgas And, as for mobs having Level*5 in defense, yes, it is an assumption. But it is an assumption that has a lot of support behind it. There have been a lot of tests and multiple data points that have relied upon this assumption. And the assumption has held valid throughout all that testing. Unfortunately, we don't have anything like that for pets.
Pets are mobs. Why would you expect them to not follow the rules for mobs? Do we assume a level skull boss is hitting our 70 tank with 365 attack skill? Pets don't have weapons, just "paw" or "claw", somewhat like Druids, whose skill is conveniently maxed out for their level automatically.

If someone wants to take a pet and have it attack +3, +2, and +1 targets to determine miss rates, let them do it. At the very least, the data can be used to compare mob and player combat.

Now, if we are testing a player vs. mob mechanic, I'd think that *ideally* we'd want to test it with a player attacking a mob. I'm a rogue, and therefore I selfishly do not care how some hunter pet is doing vs. a raid boss, unless it is allowing the hunter to approach my damage output, then nerf it by all means :P.

Karmon definitely has the right idea in testing for the hit cap using items with oddball (i.e. not multiples of 5) amounts of +skill. I kind of wish I hadn't vendored my Mugger's Belt, but if I were determined enough, I could probably solo farm Krom Krush for a new one. As it is, I have the Hydross shoulders (10 skill rating), Kara gloves (15? rating), Vashj dagger (21 rating), and if I needed to I could buy the lower city ring, which I think has 20 rating.

Unfortunately, these items only give me 2 data points between 0 and 5 skill, and it's further complicated by the fact that we don't know if skill is rounded off in practice or only on the character sheet. For example, the shoulders give me 2 skill on the character sheet, but 10 rating should be about 2.5 skill.

07/30/07, 6:01 PM   #269
Olgas
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Hunter

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Punscho Don't talk to me like I'm an imbecile.
If you wish to take offense, that's your prerogative. None was intended.

The analogy was just a last attempt to illustrate the problem I see with the proposed pet test. If you don't like it, well, that's OK by me.

I'm not going to engage in this pet discussion anymore. It's getting us nowhere and taking us off-topic anyway.

07/30/07, 6:12 PM   #270
Olgas
Von Kaiser

Dwarf Hunter

Earthen Ring
 Originally Posted by Trazhenko Karmon definitely has the right idea in testing for the hit cap using items with oddball (i.e. not multiples of 5) amounts of +skill. I kind of wish I hadn't vendored my Mugger's Belt, but if I were determined enough, I could probably solo farm Krom Krush for a new one. As it is, I have the Hydross shoulders (10 skill rating), Kara gloves (15? rating), Vashj dagger (21 rating), and if I needed to I could buy the lower city ring, which I think has 20 rating. Unfortunately, these items only give me 2 data points between 0 and 5 skill, and it's further complicated by the fact that we don't know if skill is rounded off in practice or only on the character sheet. For example, the shoulders give me 2 skill on the character sheet, but 10 rating should be about 2.5 skill.
Actually, I think it was Sp00n who suggested a really good way to test this. He suggested that a Rogue with Mace Specialization do the test. Because Mace Specialization gives exactly +2 and then +4 Weapon Skill in Maces. So, you don't have to worry about those "fractional" Weapon Skills from gear.

Similarly, a Warrior with Weapon Mastery or a Paladin with Weapon Expertise would also do the trick, since those talents add +Weapon Skill in even increments of +2, also.

Unfortunately, there's not much I can do as a Hunter to test in even increments below +5.

 Elitist Jerks [Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion