[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion - Page 19

• Shalas · 07/30/07, 6:24 PM

The pet weapon skill issue seems amazingly trivial to test. Tame a new pet and have it whack a blasted land mob for a few hours. If the glancing rate goes down with time, then pets have player-like weapon skill. Regardless of the result of that, after a few hours of attacking it'll be maxed either way, and you can do the test you originally wanted to do.

• frmorrison · 07/30/07, 11:05 PM

No need to test pets, they act like mobs. On 73s they have a 15.6% miss rate and have the same glancing blows as melee (24%). So they have player-like weapon skill most likely.

Olgas · 07/31/07, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Olgas

For purposes of completeness, and to make sure that Ranged miss rates aren't any different than Dual-Wielding miss rates, I still intend to run tests with my Hunter at various +hit levels. I'm first going to test +127 hit (8%) and no Weapon Skill. (Believe it or not, at this point, I'm really hoping I see misses! LOL, I don't want any inconsistent results!)

We ran Magtheridon's tonight (our first ever attempt, it was ugly, lol).

And, so, I got the chance to test out +127 hit (almost exactly 8%) and no Weapon Skill.

The good news is my results are consistent with what we saw when dual-wielding was tested at exactly 27%. Well, at least consistent in the fact that I was still seeing some missed shots at 8%.

Unfortunately, I DC'd just as we were wrapping up for the evening, and when I relogged I had somehow last all the data in my combat log. (Sometimes the world just conspires against you!)

However, that fact that I saw any misses at all is enough for me. I don't feel the need to repeat that test.

On my next run I'm going to equip 136 hit (8.6%) and see what happens.

Olgas · 07/31/07, 12:30 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

On 73s they have a 15.6% miss rate

Where did 15.6% come from?

Olgas · 07/31/07, 12:43 AM

Originally Posted by Shalas

The pet weapon skill issue seems amazingly trivial to test. Tame a new pet and have it whack a blasted land mob for a few hours. If the glancing rate goes down with time, then pets have player-like weapon skill. Regardless of the result of that, after a few hours of attacking it'll be maxed either way, and you can do the test you originally wanted to do.

I know everyone is trying to be helpful with all these suggestions about the pet.

The funny thing is I seem to be the person who is the least interested in the pet's miss rate -- and I'm the only one in the discussion who is a hunter! LOL.

Anyway, there really is a much simpler solution. Every time I go on a raid I am using my pet against Level 73 bosses. This is the best test of all. Level 70 pet with maxed Weapon Skill versus Level 73 boss. All I need to do is start paying more attention to what Recap is saying about my pet's miss rate. No need to spend hours in Blasted Lands.

I'll post information on my pet's misses from my next couple instance runs. My hunch is that it's going to track exactly with the miss rate for any 2h melee. But we'll see...

sp00n · 07/31/07, 5:14 AM

So, just letting you know, I'll be gone for a week now (no internet /cry), and I expect an answer by the time I return.

And I'd really strongly suggest mace specialization for further testing weapon skill.
Weapon skill rating is just a mess to test, a) we don't get even numbers with it (205 rating would be the first round number I think) and b) we don't know if fractional weapon skill does anything at all, or if its rounded up/down, or taken as is.

Mace · 07/31/07, 8:01 AM

As a tank I'm pretty interested in the parry reduce part of weapon skill. (ASsuming a mob recieves the same parry attack speed bonus as a normal player, thus reducing spike damage)

the "famous" blue post:

Let's say you increase your weapon skill by 4.

Against a mob 3 levels higher than you, you get: 0.8% lower chance to miss,
0,4% lower chance to get dodged, 2,4% to be parried, and a 0,8% higher
chance to crit."

The amount of parry reduction (1,6% for 4 skill points) took my interest.
I assume a mob starts of with a default 5% parry like everyone else.

Tests previously done tells something way different tho:

XP-Dolphin
On PTR against Zul'Gurub Bossmob
Bossmob
Attacking from front

350 Skill (Beaglej) [Character Screen]
8682 attacks
4.826% dodges
11.702% parries
2.258% crits [5.25% crit chance]

365 Skill (Therasiv) [Character Screen]
9975 attacks
3.238% dodges
11.509% parries
3.278% crits [5.97% crit chance]

Therasiv should match the mobs amount of defense with his weaponskill, giving no extra parry for the mob.

Parry% = 5% base chance + contribution from Parry Rating + contribution from talents + ((Defense skill - attacker's weapon skill) * 0.04)

So that mob had A) a higher base parry % (contribution from parry rating / contribution from talents)
or B) 512.7 defense to match the "defense skill-weapon skill*0.04"

It cant be B otherwise both were impossible to land crits on that mob. (mob would be crush immune at 490 for Beaglej)

That makes me wonder if the numbers of this test are actually representable.

Oscarvil · 07/31/07, 9:37 AM

From what I recall of that thread didn't they find that weapon skill gave no bonus to -parry but double the bonus to -dodge? This effectively combines the -mitigation effect into a nonpositional stat which benefits everyone for damage, but does nothing for the tank trying to prevent thrash.

If I'm wrong point it out so I'm not just sitting here spreading misinformation.

• frmorrison · 07/31/07, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by Olgas

Where did 15.6% come from?

WWS, but it may be messing things up, idk.

Pets have a normal 11% miss rate (howver, that may be adding dodge in) on same level targets, and the extra 15 defense on the boss increases the miss rate reportedto 15.6%.

Here is a WWS from a BM hunter on Void Reaver Kodra - WWS with about a 15.2% miss rate.

Another WWS from another BM hunter same fight Tientzo - WWS with about a 16% miss rate.

I don't know if they have the 4% to hit talent for pets.

Wodahs · 07/31/07, 11:24 AM

Thats an incorrect interpretation of WWS frmorrison. Click the config button and under the miss column, checkmark % and Nb. This will now show a column with the actual number of missed, and percentage. You are looking at the all missed aka failed to land due to miss, dodge, block, parry column.

Kodra's pet missed melee 5%, kc 2%, claw 5%, bite 6%.
Tientzo's pet missed melee 4%, claw 6%, kc 4%, bite 12%

Olgas · 07/31/07, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Pets have a normal 11% miss rate (howver, that may be adding dodge in) on same level targets, and the extra 15 defense on the boss increases the miss rate reported by recap to 15.6%.

If a BM hunter is testing (that is specced correctly), they will have less miss (there is a talent to give 4% hit to the pet).

I'm almost certain that your 11% figure against equal level mobs must be adding in Dodge.

Recap, if you look at the details, will further break out the "misses" into dodges, parries, blocks, etc. So, you can discern the actual miss rate if you look at the detail.

I am a BM hunter and I do have the talent that gives +4% to hit.

I haven't been tracking my misses with my pet carefully enough up until to now. But if you read back in this thread a little bit, you'll see that my actual miss rate with my pet has (on the couple runs where I was paying attention) been about 4%. Meaning that my pet's implied miss rate is about 8% against Level 73s.

I actually think that with further testing, though, my pet's miss rate will turn out to be closer to 9%, consistent with the other results we have seen for 2H melee. But the testing hasn't quite shown us that, yet

In any event, I'm almost certain 11% against an equal level target isn't accurate. I believe (and at this point it's still only a belief) that a pet's base miss rate is the same for 2H melee:

v. Level 70: 5%
v. Level 71: 5.5%
v. Level 72: 6%
v. Level 73: ~9%

Olgas · 07/31/07, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by frmorrison

Here is a WWS from a BM hunter on Void Reaver Kodra - WWS with about a 15.2% miss rate.

Another WWS from another BM hunter same fight Tientzo - WWS with about a 16% miss rate.

I don't know if they have the 4% to hit talent for pets.

These are both pretty small sample sets, but they are directionally informative.

According to Armory, both Kodra and Teintzo have 2 talent points in Animal Handler, which means they both have +4% hit for their pet.

Kodra's pet did a total of 223 normal melee attacks and saw 13 misses (5.8%).
Teintzo's pet did a total of 270 normal melee attacks and saw 14 misses (5.2%).

Add back in the 4% from Animal Handler and you see a base miss rate of 9.8% and 9.2%, respectively. But again these sample sets are very small, so these results are likely consistent with a 9% base miss rate.

Olgas · 07/31/07, 2:25 PM

Hey, something just occurred to me.

I don't think we've actually seen a dual-wielding test yet, with exactly 363 hit rating. This would be a great next test -- if it demonstrates no misses at all -- that would go a long way towards confirming the 28% theory.

Dontmindme · 07/31/07, 4:53 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

And I'd really strongly suggest mace specialization for further testing weapon skill.
Weapon skill rating is just a mess to test, a) we don't get even numbers with it (205 rating would be the first round number I think) and b) we don't know if fractional weapon skill does anything at all, or if its rounded up/down, or taken as is.

I believe I have a good way to test whether fractional weapon skill applies or not, thus opening up more configurations to testing.

For openers, we know that the character screen (and subsequent hit percentages) round all fractions down with weapon skill rating. Thus, there are 2 main schools of thought:
1) That's just the character screen, but fractions probably still apply. OR
2) All fractions are dropped.

Now, the easiest way to accurately test hit ratings seems to be Haluum and determining the hit rating needed not to ever miss. So I ran a few numbers with 360 and WEx at various weapon skill ratings...

I found that with 15 weapon skill rating [15/(2.5*82/52) or 3.8049 weapon skill], you get the following:
If weapon skill rating fractions apply, you would need 278 hit rating to theoretically not miss. If fractions are dropped, you should miss 0.0707% of the time and you would need 280 hit rating to never miss.

15 weapon skill rating is pretty easy to achieve. Grips of Deftness or Whispering Blade of Slaying, for example. I hope to be able to test this on the weekend, but if anyone has the free time and inclination before then, go for it. Probably need at least 10000 swings without a miss to be reasonably confident at 278, but any miss implies fractions are indeed dropped.

Dontmindme · 08/01/07, 1:11 AM

Well, I did a quick test before going to bed.
Dual-wielding daggers, Precision, WEx and 15 Weapon Skill rating from Claw of the Netherwing Flight (Yields 263 weapon skill on the tooltip), 278 hit rating.
278*10*82/50 = 17.6293 + 5 + 1 = 23.6293%
If weapon skill fractions count = 23.6293 + 0.3805 = 24.0098% to hit
If not = 23.6293 + 0.3 = 23.9293% to hit
vs. Haalum level 70 from behind (theoretical 24.0% miss rate)

857 attacks against Haalum
856 immunes
1 miss (so I stopped)

Seems to indicate that fractional weapon skill from excess rating gets dropped.

When I next find time I plan to try 279 hit rating (which still theoretically should miss if fractions are dropped), followed by a large number of swings at 280.