Karmon

We need the talent specs for the participants.
Warriors and Rogues can spec "Deflection" giving up to an extra 5% to parry.
Maybe some of the warriors did not had deflection? Or other means to increase parry chance?
Are there +parry items? Does "immunity to disarm" interact with parry?

Questions, Questions....

 

Dontmindme

Deflection (for rogues) only affects your chance to parry an attack. It does not affect whether your attacks are parried by an opponent.

 

sp00n

Nothing affects the chance to be parried, besides presumably weapon skill.
And maybe it's even level fixed. On the first site I saw Nalisol's posting, where he had no parries against level 60 with 350 skill, but 6 parries in a much much smaller data sample with 360 skill and against level 62.
At least that would explain it. Or additional skill only gives the mentioned 0.04%. Or nothing. Or something completely different.

Speaking of which: currently 1338 attacks without miss.


// Edit
Just noticed a possible explanation about the low dodge rate of our paladin testers (which maybe has been mentioned already but I didn't feel to reread all postings). They were attacking a caster mob, so maybe it's because of the target performing a cast that she wasn't able to dodge during these times. Similar to the only 5% I've noticed on Drek'Thar and his 'casting' of whirlwind.
Parry seems to be unaffected by it though.

// Edit2
Taking a closer look and wildly speculating now.

350 Skill (Beaglej)
4.826% dodges

365 Skill (Therasiv)
3.238% dodges

IF the dodge rate is set to 6% for level 73 mobs (which is the number I repeatedly see in this thread) and IF casting prevents dodges and IF that casting time reduced the dodge rate by 1.2% (so that Beaglej matches 6%), we see that Therasiv would have had a 4.438% doge rate without this casting time.
This is 1.6% - 1.5% lower than 6%. And 1.5% / 15 additional weapon skill is exactly 0.1% per point of weapon skill.
That are a lot of ifs, and maybe it's just a coincidence, but at least it's interesting.

 

Suran

Hi there!
I'm following this post quite long now and it's impressive what you guys have figured out. I#M currently fiddling around with writing addons. What i'm doing is recording which skills do hit, miss, crit, etc an mob at a given level with a given hit and weapon rating.
So you will get an table like this:

So far its working pretty good, just one or two oddities i have to solve to get it foolproof.
As you do lots of math with such type of numbers, is there any need for this addon?
What is a good sample size for you to work with?
At the moment there is just the data mining and little output, what would you need (like %miss for given skill/moblevel per melee/style/all styles/overall etc)?

Cheers Suran

 

Gruntle

I'm not sure I understand how your tables will look, but the type of addon you're working on would be very nice indeed. One of the most important things for the addon to do would be to keep track of buffs and debuffs and perhaps also keep a record of the tooltip values for crit and hit.

It would also be good if you could make one entry for white hits and one for all specials (or perhaps separate entries for all different specials), but perhaps that's what you mean by styles?. Make sure that you also keep track of talents/racials and if dual wielding. I would be interested in trying out your addon.

 

suicuique

Speaking of parry, anybody else found the bosses in TBC to be parrying a lot?

We were wiping an evening on Archimonde lately, so I had 4 hrs worth of data maintanking him (read: I was always attacking from the front, Archimonde being the only mob, and never changed my gear setup). And it showed a startling 12% parry chance by Archimonde. That was rather consistent for autoattacks, heroic strikes, revenge, shieldslams ...

The data for my avoidance (miss, dodge, parry) did mirror my paper sheet stats quite nicely, so I think the sampled data (while not overly large) was adequate to give a first picture of his parry rate.

I used the [The Brutalizer], that increased my weapon skill to 355.
Some quick glances over some Gorefiend tries gave similiar numbers. Though the data sampled there was way less.

As a sidenote: his dodge rate was way lower (though I cannot give an exact number here ... I'm at work now)

Did anyone else try to observe parry and dodge rates on bosses?

 

sp00n

What's "stly a"? Special attack?

And just to let you know, I'm currently at ~2000 swings without a miss with 337 hit rating and 354 weapon skill. I should see one in about 3500 swings overall.
It's quite reasonable to believe that the hit value is not larger than 0.4073% now (the value 4 weapon skill would need to match to never miss with 337 hit rating).

Or the formula 10*82/52 is slightly wrong. Btw, who did found that formula? One could also write 10*41/26 as I did not notice until now.

I'm going to continue with 337 hit rating until I (hopefully soon) see a miss. If I do not see one, we have to think about something new (again!). Some weird non linear formula comes to my mind, but I hope not.


// Edit
@suicuique
Yes, parry rates seem to hover around 12-14% for bosses. You don't have any combatlogs available by any chance?

 

suicuique

No combatlogs, sorry.
I just made screencaps of my recap final data for all my physical attacks when we called it a night.

 

Suran

Well, that is waht this addon does ^^ im sorry, i thought 'style' was the "enUS" for specials (like SinisterStrike etc)

'style a' would a specific special (like Sinister Strike) and in that table all hits/miss/parry for Sinister Strike are recorded

Well, each Time your Charakterstats are changed, your hit and weaponskills are updated and the hit/miss/etc are recorded in the appropriate table. I hope the corresponding event is fired if you get a debuff, i will test it later today (but i'm certain it does) EDIT: bah doesn't work like i thought it would...

Here is an example how the real table looks (sry for the german words, but my locale is deDE ^^):

So in this entry i had 267 hitRATING and 363 weaponSKILL (not rating) and i fought a lvl 63 mob and had 5 melee hits, 2 melee crits, 1 sinister (Finsterer Stoß in german) hit and 1 sinister crit.
If your hitrating or weaponskill changes, you will get a second table like this.
If you hit a mob with a different level, but the same hit/weaponskill, you will get a new subtable (like the [63] table) with the appropriate moblevel.

I hope i could make a bit clear what that addon actually does
At the moment only data gathering is active and no easy way to get pretty results ( like: Against lvl 64 mobs your missrate at 123 hitrating and 290 weaponskill for Sinister Strike is 3,7%). Just get me some infos what specific information you want.

Cheers Suran

 

Gruntle

Ah I see, in principle you've made a real-time combat log parser. Looks nice, if you could make an EN localization I'd like to try it out.

Ok, in principle there are more things that could affect the observed rates of hits and crits. Not sure how to implement it into your table structure. An easy thing to add would be to have the crit (both MH and OH if different) as part of the hit/weapon skill entry. Then you have stuff like Imp. Faerie fire and dranei aura to worry about, it would be nice if the addon could make separate entries for when you're (or the mob) under the influence of this type of buffs (debuffs).

Is the ability entries generated automatically or do you have to implement each special in the code?

 

Suran

the ability entry comes from the parserlib i use, all i do is proper recording of the events (that is hit/miss/etc) for the moblevel and hit/weaponskill, so if you use it in enUS it should have the correct english names for your specials
nothing of it is hardcoded, so it doesn't matter which class you are, except you have to be a melee class and do physical damage

the problem with buffs increasing/decreasing your hit values, is the following:
(tested this with scorpid sting and those bees from a druid)
the decreased hit is NOT reflected by an proper event, and i can't use the wow api, cause it reports you hit chance without the debuffed value (so wenn i get scorpid sting, the wow api still gives me the same hit value, as it gave me without the sting)
so at the moment i have no clue how to detect those debuffs (well i have one, but its buttugly ^^)
i'm completely new to this lua stuff, so its getting along a bit slow at the moment

 

• Aldriana

This has been independantly derived by a number of people, including myself. Someone on wowwiki figured it out by using some interface command that would print out the effect of hit rating to ~10 digits of accuracy and just checked for a couple different stat values. I'd did it by looking at the character screen value of hit for ~50 different values of hit rating and figuring out what value of hit rating was consistant with all of them. I don't think there's much chance that this number could be wrong, unless they changed it at some point (which I doubt).

 

Punscho

http://elitistjerks.com/412424-post117.html

I started combatlogging all my raids a while back but unfortunately my guild stopped raiding and I haven't raided for a long time so it's no huge sample.

If we could get that table updated with tk/bt/hyjal bosses people could just submit their logs and their weaponskill and we could parse them. I made an AWK script I run on my Linux box for parsing. To get the file size down you could just extract all rows with [yY]ou in them and you'll have all your visible attacks.

As a note I noticed about double the rate of parry compared to dodge, maybe slightly more than double. That is well within the 12% ball park.

 

stampy

This might actually be a valuable discrepancy. I'm a bit of a tourist (at best) in this thread, but it seems to me that if indeed weapon skill affects dodge but not parry, then tanking numbers might be good for measurement... if parry is indeed unchanged by skill, tanking logs will provide both a baseline rate (parry) and a modified rate (dodge).

At least, for the sake of determining dodge modification... doesn't tell us anything new about misses.

 

Dontmindme

As stated above, the formula was derived from Blizzard UI functions by some guy who wrote an add-on called Rating Buster (just search wowwiki and that). I had also heard that someone discovered a client-side table in an mpq that shows this.

The reason it is not reduced is because of the formula for each level:
From level 1-10: 2 / 52
From level 10-60 (Level 10 is considered the minimum: (Level - 8) / 52
From level 60-70: 82 / (262 - 3 * Level)
And apparently already coded into the UI (how this was exactly determined I do not know)
From level 70-100: (Level + 12) / 52

Meaning at level 80 with the expansion, you can expect the formula to change to: 92 / 52

As an fyi, I pulled the base formulas from wowwiki under combat ratings, but have seen this elsewhere as well.

 

Olgas

Ok, here's what I'm concluding from Sp00n's test so far:

With 337 Hit Rating and 354 Weapon Skill,
if the +hit per Weapon Skill was .35, he should see a miss every ~436 swings
if the +hit per Weapon Skill was .375, he should see a miss every ~773 swings
if the +hit per Weapon Skill was .40, he should see a miss every ~3416 swings

He's gone 2000 swings with zero misses, which therefore makes it extremely unlikely that .35 figure is accurate, and pretty darn unlikely that the .375 figure is accurate. Which means we are very close to confirming the .4 figure.

HOWEVER, we do still need to see a miss with 337 Hit Rating. Please, please, just a single miss...

It does feel, though, that the following formula for determining miss rate is now very close to being fully proven:

 

◊ Rob

If this turns out to be correct, [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] will be far-and-away the best possible belt for Enhancement shamans using maces or fist weapons (and quite possibly for Fury warriors as well).

 

• Aldriana

Not to rain on the parade, but I have to ask:

Have we shown conclusively that the behavior between at 10+ weapon skill difference is linear? I mean, it probably is, but there's no fundamental reason it has to be - I'd feel more comfortable if, after finishing the test at 354, some testing at, say, 352 could be done, just to make sure things like up the way we think they should.

 

Dontmindme

I believe 352 weapon skill was already nailed down, so we are showing a linear relationship between at least 350 to 352 to 354.

 

sp00n

Hell yes. Please. It's becoming really tedious.
Currently at 2700 attacks without a miss, and unfortunately some of these will inevitably be invalid due to a moonkin faerie fire or a dreanei aura. Hadn't much time to run AV with my beloved alliance due to raiding also.

Not exactly. Quite likely of course, but not 100% proven yet. However, after so many attacks, if I see a miss with 337 hit rating I think we can accept the 0.4% formula.

 

Dontmindme

What I mean by nailed down for 352...
You showed a miss at 350 hit rating.
You showed a substantial number of attacks at 351 hit rating without a miss.
The only more you "could" do is show more attacks without a miss at 351, but that could be said for any test as it's impossible to prove you will never miss.

Now, when you see a miss at 354, that will be nailed down in my book too.

And 350 has been tested to death.

Looking at the hit rating numbers for testing done so far at 350, 352, and 354, it appears to be a linear relationship. We have 3 points that appear to make a line.

 

Karmon

Friday I will try again with 353 skill.
I will start with 343 hitrating (should give a miss at the time we reach opera ) . When I see a miss I will switch to 344 rating

 

Densor

Suran, it might be a good idea to put in a separate table for each different mob name as well. Some mobs have the annoying feature of added defense or some other mechanic, which might make it bad to clump all the data together. If they data is separated by mob levels and mob names, then people can easily go through the table and throw out whatever mobs seem to have odd mechanics.

 

Shaka82

I have a few questions, i have read much of this and i just want a few things confirmed.
Question 1: 4 weapon skill from my talents Weapon Mastery, will that give me 0,8% hitt while weilding a 2H versus most lvl 73 bosses?
Question 2: If i get 1 more weapon skill in total of 5, it will give me a 2% hitt bonus right? giving me total 3% hitt from the 5 weapon skills versus most lvl 73 bosses. Or am I wrong here?

If thoose to examples are confirmed, is it possible to get that in the first post?

 

Olgas

I hate to write a summary before we've completed all the testing. But there are now a lot of Linkbacks to this thread from the WoW forums and other places. Unfortunately, some of the Linkbacks have not correctly captured our conclusions. This thread has, after all, become very long and dense -- and it's hard for the average reader to skim through this all of this.

So, here is an updated quick and dirty summary of where we are so far:

1. Your base miss rate against any mob or boss is determined solely by the difference between you Weapon Skill and the mob's/boss's Defense Skill.


2. If the difference between the Mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10, then the formula for determining your base miss rate is:
(And, of course, if you are dual wielding substitute 24% for 5% in the above formula.)


3. If the difference between the Mob's Defense Skill and Your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then we THINK the formula for determining your bass miss rate is:
(If dual wielding, substitute 26% for 7% in the above formula.) (Also, please understand, this formula is what we are still in the midst of testing. We have definitely disproven several other theories on what this formula might. And we know from our tests that this formula is at least very very close to being accurate, but it is not 100% proven yet.)


4. In doing the (Defense - Weapon Skill) calculation, fractional Weapon Skill amounts are dropped. For example, if you equip gear that adds +15 Weapon Skill rating this would add 3.804 to your Weapon Skill. However, it is treated as 3.00 Weapon Skill for purposes of these calculations.


5. Applying the above formula yields the following base miss rates for a Level 70 character with 350 Weapon Skill:
(Also, obviously, just add 19% to all the figures above if you are dual-wielding).


6. Because the formula is dependent upon the differential between Weapon Skill and Defense Skill, adding Weapon Skill (whether through talents, racial bonuses or gear) will reduce your miss rates against all mobs. But, because of the way the formula works, the beneficial impact of adding Weapon Skill is non-linear. In particular, as a Level 70 character, adding the first 5 levels of Weapon Skill (i.e., getting your Weapon Skill to 355) is the most beneficial, because it will effectively reduce your base miss rate against Level 73 mobs/bosses from 9% to 6%.


7. Also, note that there is a huge jump in miss rate reduction by going from 354 to 355 Weapon Skill. This is the point where you switch from one formula to the other, and so this particular single point of Weapon Skill is worth a whopping +1.4% hit against a Level 73 mob/boss.