[Rogue/Warrior] Weapon Skill Adjustment Discussion - Page 25

Avam · 09/17/07, 1:33 PM

Is there a Warrior Damage Simulator like the Warlock/Spriest ones I've seen running around ?

• Aldriana · 09/17/07, 1:56 PM

Originally Posted by sp00n

So... it's the same results and only a slightly different formula?
Why would I use a more complicated one if the easier is just as exact (besides from a mathematical point of view).

The more complicated formula does actually give a slightly different (and more accurate) answer. It's just that for the size of data sets we're dealing with, the difference is very small. If our data sets were smaller, there would be a larger difference between the two formulas.

So, the short answer is: you're free to use either, and it generally won't matter for the sort of stuff we're doing, as any data set small enough that the difference actually matters is sufficiently small as to be uninformative as well.

royaljester · 09/17/07, 3:15 PM

Originally Posted by Looney

Assuming all the stuff sp00n posted (big love for this!) is right, then [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] would have like...ehm... 49 hit rating for a fury warrior? WTF?
This is awesome!

The one thing I'm still thinking about:

Target 3 levels higher, +3% Hit (e.g. Fury Warrior with Precision)
Skill    Hit   Miss    Total    Decrease
+ 0   394.23   25.0%   + 4.0%   0.0%
+ 6   345.35   21.9%   + 0.9%   0.1%

So due to the Belt you need 48.88 less hit rating in order the reach the cap. Right?
But the weapon skill also reduces the dodge rate of the mob, how much dodge does the Mob loose with a weapon skill of 356?

SOooo I'm wondering how much hit rating that would be for a rogue (dual-wielding)? I would assume, by the .1% per skill level gained, but I am definitely the person to ask or even know on this subject. I ask because its between [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] and [Belt of Deep Shadow], and after losing 18-34 hit (depending on sockets), I got scared that weapon skill isnt what its' cracked up to be.

I have 371 Weapon skill with swords (Human, spec, Belt from Vashj). How much extra hit, +precision does this mean I would need to hit cap? Around 280 is my thoughts, but again, I'd rather an expert tell me :\

Gruntle · 09/17/07, 3:49 PM

check a page or two back, Spoon has made a very nice script that you can run to get the exact hit rating needed to reach cap for different weapon skill and talents, there is a link to the script in that post.

Looney · 09/17/07, 4:08 PM

Originally Posted by royaljester

SOooo I'm wondering how much hit rating that would be for a rogue (dual-wielding)? I would assume, by the .1% per skill level gained, but I am definitely the person to ask or even know on this subject. I ask because its between [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] and [Belt of Deep Shadow], and after losing 18-34 hit (depending on sockets), I got scared that weapon skill isnt what its' cracked up to be.

I have 371 Weapon skill with swords (Human, spec, Belt from Vashj). How much extra hit, +precision does this mean I would need to hit cap? Around 280 is my thoughts, but again, I'd rather an expert tell me :\

Weapon Skill

You should have 18.4% Miss and you need 290.15 hit rating in order to reach the cap!

royaljester · 09/17/07, 4:27 PM

Originally Posted by Looney

Weapon Skill

You should have 18.4% Miss and you need 290.15 hit rating in order to reach the cap!

So the "+hit from talents" is the % I gain from talents, not the actual +hit rating. Good to know.

Also, if I add the gloves from Al'ar, adding another 4.6, which would total to 11.01 or just 11 weapon skill added to my 365, or 376 weapon skill. Thats' would lower my personal hit cap to 282. That's quite low, and as long as I'm not losing my 2 piece T4, or other tier'd bonus, Doesn't that seem to be, point for point, one of the best stats to have?

I'll check the sheets in a little bit to see if it truly would be a dpz increase or not, but I'm assuming that lowering my hit cap would mean that lowering my actual hit would def be a possibility (228 right now with 7% passive haste and +25 weapon skill). Anyone else's thoughts? Also, using the weapon skill items is pointless on trash mobs, correct? The true benefits of the wep skill come from 73+ mobs...aka raid bosses?

Dontmindme · 09/17/07, 7:49 PM

Originally Posted by royaljester

Also, using the weapon skill items is pointless on trash mobs, correct? The true benefits of the wep skill come from 73+ mobs...aka raid bosses?

Actually, it depends. The big 3% gain from 350 to 355 weapon skill doesn't apply with trash. The 0.1% miss relief per weapon skill (and the possible 0.1% on dodge) still applies to trash if you haven't already passed the hit cap for their level.

Since you are already past the 355 issue and are talking about 228 hit rating, the hit benefit would definitely also apply to the trash. A level 72 is only 0.5% easier to hit and 71 is only 1% easier, so if you still miss that much, the weapon skill is still a benefit.

Giske · 09/18/07, 12:19 PM

I dont know what you did to your weapon skill script, but its crashing Firefox pretty hard every time I try to open it.

sp00n · 09/18/07, 5:57 PM

Originally Posted by Giske

I dont know what you did to your weapon skill script, but its crashing Firefox pretty hard every time I try to open it.

It's working fine for me (2.0.0.6), Firebug and HTML Validator show now errors either.
Maybe it's the floating advertisement added by Pytalhost that's causing your issues

ildon · 09/19/07, 7:41 AM

I was wondering what effect, if any, weapon skill had on PvP. I imagine it must be very small, such as the old 0.04% to hit/crit -0.04% to dodge/block/parry per skill point. I've heard some people claim it has zero effect, but I doubt this is true do to the fact that +defense skill still works in PvP, minimally to increase dodge/block/parry in melee on same level targets. This is trivial to prove by having a rogue attack a warrior in full tank gear from the front.

Has any testing on this been done in the past? The problems I see are that if it still uses something similar to the old formula (0.04 to all avoidance stats), the difference would be statistically insignificant without a massive data set, and the problem with using random pvp combat logs is that the current defense skill of your target is generally unknown. Also, it is known that level differences are not as severe for players as for mobs, as there are no glances/crushes, but is the rest of the hit table still based off of weapon and defense skill?

Another problem with using pvp combat logs is that players cannot dodge from behind as mobs do. All attacks would have to be performed from the front.

I'm mostly just curious if someone has tested this in the past at all, even if before 2.0.

koaschten · 09/19/07, 8:51 AM

@ildon
I wonder what you are up to. Stacking Weaponskill in PvP will net you probably at most those named 0.04% per skill point. From an item budget view its really inefficient as you could simply stack pure hit or crit.
As you said, players dont dodge from behind.... so the possible -dodge -parry -block mechanic doesnt matter... and i doubt you will attack a def tank in warsong from the front, because thats the only ocasion you might have a boost from it. but well... 360 weaponskill vs 490+ def... go figure the boost, it might be negative.

• Cluey · 09/19/07, 1:23 PM

Originally Posted by royaljester

So the "+hit from talents" is the % I gain from talents, not the actual +hit rating. Good to know.

Also, if I add the gloves from Al'ar, adding another 4.6, which would total to 11.01 or just 11 weapon skill added to my 365, or 376 weapon skill. Thats' would lower my personal hit cap to 282. That's quite low, and as long as I'm not losing my 2 piece T4, or other tier'd bonus, Doesn't that seem to be, point for point, one of the best stats to have?

I'll check the sheets in a little bit to see if it truly would be a dpz increase or not, but I'm assuming that lowering my hit cap would mean that lowering my actual hit would def be a possibility (228 right now with 7% passive haste and +25 weapon skill). Anyone else's thoughts? Also, using the weapon skill items is pointless on trash mobs, correct? The true benefits of the wep skill come from 73+ mobs...aka raid bosses?

Your post is not easy to read.

About checking the sheets, they will not show you what you want to know unless they have been updated with the latest data from this thread. I am behind on the latest sheet but looking at what has been changed in the latest version it isn't mentioned.

Alliera · 09/25/07, 2:13 AM

Very interesting read.

A bit of an aside: Many Protection paladin builds are 0/49/12, with 3/3 Precision. But if I'm not mistaken, it's actually more beneficial to drop Precision and take 3/5 Weapon Expertise, as the first 5 weapon skill effectively grants +3% hit -- and 3/5 Weapon Expertise grants 6 weapon skill. Plus weapon skill does not just affect +hit.

Gruntle · 09/25/07, 3:34 AM

Originally Posted by Alliera

Very interesting read.

A bit of an aside: Many Protection paladin builds are 0/49/12, with 3/3 Precision. But if I'm not mistaken, it's actually more beneficial to drop Precision and take 3/5 Weapon Expertise, as the first 5 weapon skill effectively grants +3% hit -- and 3/5 Weapon Expertise grants 6 weapon skill. Plus weapon skill does not just affect +hit.

True, but remember that it's only true if you don't have +5 weapon skill from some other source (e.g. human weapon skill bonus or gear). It's only the first 5 that will give you 3% +hit.

Trazhenko · 09/25/07, 12:46 PM

Furthermore, the 6 skill is only better than 3 hit if your target is a +3 mob (barring other sources of skill). The 3 hit talent is 3 hit vs all targets, but the 6 skill is 3.1 hit vs bosses, and .6 hit vs trash and the mobs you tank in 5-mans. The 3 hit talent is more well-rounded, and I don't believe threat is a big problem for paladins taking raid boss level damage and, consequently, raid boss level healing to fill their mana bar.

ildon · 09/25/07, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by koaschten

@ildon
I wonder what you are up to. Stacking Weaponskill in PvP will net you probably at most those named 0.04% per skill point. From an item budget view its really inefficient as you could simply stack pure hit or crit.
As you said, players dont dodge from behind.... so the possible -dodge -parry -block mechanic doesnt matter... and i doubt you will attack a def tank in warsong from the front, because thats the only ocasion you might have a boost from it. but well... 360 weaponskill vs 490+ def... go figure the boost, it might be negative.

Aren't people allowed to have intellectual curiosity anymore? I really don't expect anyone to test it unless they have the same curiosity I do. Unfortunately my thirst for knowledge is outweighed by my disdain for tedium and my realization on how much data it would require to get any statistically significant results. I was mostly just hoping someone knew of a test that was done in the past.

okkita · 09/28/07, 7:39 AM

I'd like to congratulate the people behind this research for an amazing data gathering and analysis work. Big cons for you guys on unraveling yet another of the mysteries behind WoW's combat mechanics. /hattip /bow

Kandiru · 09/28/07, 1:33 PM

Originally Posted by Trazhenko

Furthermore, the 6 skill is only better than 3 hit if your target is a +3 mob (barring other sources of skill). The 3 hit talent is 3 hit vs all targets, but the 6 skill is 3.1 hit vs bosses, and .6 hit vs trash and the mobs you tank in 5-mans. The 3 hit talent is more well-rounded, and I don't believe threat is a big problem for paladins taking raid boss level damage and, consequently, raid boss level healing to fill their mana bar.

The issue is also that more weapon skill means the boss parries you less which means you take less damage.

I think the Weapon skill does not affect Avenger's shield(since paladins have no ranged weapon skill) either while precision does.

Apate · 09/28/07, 1:41 PM

Originally Posted by Kandiru

The issue is also that more weapon skill means the boss parries you less which means you take less damage.

Please don't spread misinformation. Have you read this thread?

Surlybeve · 09/28/07, 6:54 PM

Originally Posted by Looney

Weapon Skill

This macro just saved me so much time, bookmarked forever! Lots of good information in this thread, just wanted to give you guys props for working all this out.

Sleepyhead · 09/28/07, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by Looney

Weapon Skill

This looks very interesting and useful, lovely for a quick comparison!

sp00n · 09/29/07, 6:28 AM

If you want to, you can also download it to your computer. It's just javascript, so it also works when you're offline.

Repus · 10/03/07, 3:17 AM

I have read through this all and am still vague on what hunters skill rating is... i know this is for rogues and warriors but is +5 to bows that trolls receive really 3% hit rating?

Gruntle · 10/03/07, 3:39 AM

Originally Posted by Repus

I have read through this all and am still vague on what hunters skill rating is... i know this is for rogues and warriors but is +5 to bows that trolls receive really 3% hit rating?

Yes, if you have no other +weapon skill modifiers (gear), the racial +5 weapons skill bonus is really 3% +hit. Imba racial

edit: but only against lvl 73 mobs, for level 71-72 mobs it's only 0.5% +hit

Grimspire · 10/03/07, 4:23 AM

So if I'm understanding this correctly, would Belt of One-Hundred Deaths only be better than Belt of Deep Shadow for a non-human Rogue without weapon expertise?

In all other cases, the Rogue would have already reached the 355 mark for weapon skill, thus the 6 weapon skill attained from the Belt of One-Hundred Deaths would only give .6% hit whereas the Belt of Deep Shadow with 18 hit rating would give more? I understand there are other factors such as a bit more crit from the extra weapon skill, but the difference would be very small once you've hit the 355 weapon skill mark.

I ask because I currently have both belts.